Common PvP Warrior Questions

Abilities, Gear, PvP, Slam, Talents 23 Comments »

Disclaimer: this is another “guest post”, if you also want to share your thoughts on this blog, just let me know in comments and I’ll contact you via e-mail - Terhix

1/2 Improved Overpower or 2/2 Improved Overpower?

Flurry build – Higher chance to getting flurry procs
Tactical Mastery – More overpower usage
Every class can dodge, but it’s most effective vs rogues, hunters, and druids.
Answer – 2/2 overpower regardless of build

2% Blood Frenzy/ 15% Improved Hamstring or 4% Blood Frenzy/ 10% Improved Hamstring?

It comes down to make up. If you’re the only physical dpser, I’d suggest 2% Blood Frenzy and 4% Blood Frenzy if there’s more than one.

Improved Slam?

It’s not very good in “most” PvP situations. No.

Booming Voice, Improved Demoralizing Shout, or Unbridled Wrath?

Booming Voice or Unbridled Wrath. I’d prefer Unbridled Wrath, but Booming Voice can be useful too. I really don’t know what’s better here. Suggestions?

Improved Heroic Strike vs Parry

I haven’t found myself using Heroic Strike often enough to justify 3 talent points.

Weapon Spec?

Swords can be good in 3s and 5s depending on make up, while Mace is good in 2s, 3s, and 5s on any make up. I’d suggest Maces though. Axe is for PvE.

Racial?

Yes, racial IS game breaking. Gnomes for alliance and Orcs/Tauren for horde.

Crit vs AP (aka gems)

Instant attacks are affected by AP normalization.
Crits are affected by resilience.

Crit is better for arena in “most cases” since “burst is king.” Criting your target during a group burst or swap is more important doing 20 more damage. I’d gem mostly for crit.

Edit

Blood Craze vs Commanding Presence

Blood Craze gives you “more” per point of talent points you’re spending. 1 point in commanding presence gives you 8 strength or 5.4 stamina. 1 point in Blood Craze gives you 1% of your health over 6 seconds after a crit. Is 8 strength or 5.4 stamina worth it over blood craze? In situations like double melee, maybe.

Chest enchant 15 resilience or +6 stats

15 resilience is harder to find in items and it’s more valuable than 6str 6 agi and 6 stamina in terms of item value.

I’m planning on giving more details on my reasoning for each section.

Leh

Blood Frenzy or 3/5 Flurry: The choice is yours

Flurry, Slam, Talents 14 Comments »

One of the big decisions a warrior has to make in his pvp talent spec is between the flat 4% dps increase of blood frenzy and the 15% white dps increase of flurry.

Now, I don’t know too many people who will argue that BF isn’t immediately superior if you add another physical dps source to your target, so I won’t waste time arguing that. Add a rogue or hunter on your target and BF pulls double duty, surpassing flurry easily.

But if it’s just you doing physical damage, how big is the gap between 3/5 flurry and 2/2BF? Not as big as you might think - in fact its virtually non-existent.

I based my calculations on the following assumptions. Note that the actual figure for “avg dmg per hit” isn’t that important because both abilities scale. Higher crit should favour yellow damage due to impale, but 33% is pretty easily obtained by any warrior.

In order to compare the talents I needed a figure for how much of your dps comes from yellow and how much comes from white,  because flurry only affects your white dps. For reference, I calculated that without using slam/hs/cleave, white damage makes up 44% of your dps. If you insert 1 slam every 10 seconds, white damage drops to 35%. I did not model for execute, hs, or cleave. Hamstring and pummel damage is pretty much negligible.

The scenario:

A 1 minute fight, using 16 white hits, 10 MS, and 5 WW (I dropped the 6th ww because GCD for MS and WW collide every 30sec, thus you could not actually do 10ms and 6 ww in 60 seconds)
A 33% crit rate (1 in 3 hits are crits)
A normal white hit of 700 damage.

The Shakedown:

3/5 Flurry provides 6.6% more overall DPS.
2/2 Blood Frenzy provides 4% more overall DPS.

BUT

Flurry costs an additional talent point. There are 2 ways to look at this:

Theoretical: BF is 2% dps per talent point, Flurry is 2.1% per talent point.
Practical: With 1 more point you could put it in 2h wep mastery for an additional 1% to your 4% of BF (5% total for BF vs 6.6% for Flurry).

You might not put it there, but that’s effectively what its worth since you could actually do that if you want max dps.

BUT WAIT! THERE’S MORE!

The original calculation does NOT include the use of slam or cleave/Heroic strike. I did not model the test to use hs/cleave as they are hugely rage inefficient and would be unfair comparisons. Everytime you use them you lose 1 of your white hits, so they quickly make flurry look terrible.

I did however re-model it to see what happens if you throw in some improved slams. The number of slams you can use in a minute is entirely dependent on your rage generation. If you had infinite rage, you’d never even do a white hit, instead slamming everytime MS was on CD. So flurry would do 0% dps in that case.

The fact of life is we don’t have infinite rage, and rage generation can vary wildly. If you’re rage starved, you might never slam. If you’re critting and getting second wind/mace procs, you might slam every other white swing. I chose to see what would happen if I slammed 6 times during that 1 minute fight, i.e. 1 slam every 10 seconds, which seems pretty reasonable.

The result?

Flurry would drop to a 5.25% overall dps increase (1.75% per talent point vs BF’s 2% per talent point).

Why is that you ask? Because flurry only increases my white DPS, while BF increases both white and yellow dps. The more my damage that comes from yellow sources, the less flurry is doing for my overall DPS.

Also, each slam takes up 0.5s of my dps time, so right away if I do between 1-7 slams, I lose 1 white swing (3.6s to do 1 swing). 8-14, I lose 2 white swings. etc. I modeled on 6 slams so dropped from 16 white swings to 15.

As you can imagine, its even worse for HS/Cleave, because every SINGLE cleave/hs eliminates a white swing. As I said, there’s no point modelling this as it will make flurry look horrendous very quickly and we know that’s not accurate.

I did not bother trying to factor in execute damage because it’s nearly impossible to do - it depends how much time your target spends below 20%, how much rage you have, etc. It’s there, and its more yellow damage - probably a significant amount, but its nearly impossible to quantify. For my model I guess just assume the target never went below 20% in that 1 minute :p

So… Are there any redeeming qualities for flurry?!

There is in fact 1 very significant advantage to flurry. Because it affects white dps, it affects rage generation. Flurry produces 11% more rage from white damage than BF does.

Thats roughly like having a half-point in Endless rage.

This is mildly mitigated by the fact that you can take Tactical Mastery with BF but not with flurry. The more you stance dance, the more rage TM is “generating” (by saving 15 per switch) for you, in addition to opening instant disarm/spell reflect doors.

So what’s the bottom line?

In the absolute best case scenario for flurry (you never use slam, HS, or Cleave), it will do 2.6% more dps for you than blood frenzy would.
If you insert a few slams, and compensate for that missing talent point (consider it at worst a 1% dps increase), flurry does pretty much identical dps to blood frenzy.
If you add another source of physical dps, blood frenzy completely blows 3/5 flurry out of the water.

Flurry’s advantage is producing 11% more white-dmg rage than BF, which is like half-endless rage. It’s primary disadvantage is that you can’t take tactical mastery, which opens doors to instant-reflect/disarm/ww and saves rage when switching stances.

When all is said and done, 3/5 flurry and 2/2 blood frenzy are almost identical in terms of dps and utility. (unless you’re a noob who never uses slam, and never pvp’s with other physical dpsers, in which case flurry will give ~1.6% more dps than BF)

But at the end of the day we’re talking 1% (or less) dps difference, and you don’t see people funneling points into 2h mastery, nor re-rolling human/orc for the 1% crit. The choice really is yours.

Read the rest of this entry »

Veritas

41/17/3 vs 33/28 for raid dps

Abilities, PvE, Slam, Talents, patch 2.3 4 Comments »

I’ve done some math earlier today regarding this issue. 33/28 (blood frenzy in arms, not second wind) have improved slam, 3/5 flurry and weapon mastery while 41/17/3 provides Improved MS and ER. With 33/28 you do damage cycles like this:

Swing, Slam, MS | Swing, Slam, WW | Swing, Slam, MS | Swing, Slam | Swing, Slam, MS (WW is ready at this point, but can’t be used due to GCD conflict) | Swing, Slam, WW…

For the sake of simplicity, let’s assume that with 3.6s weapon and 3/5 Flurry your swings are done at the speed of 3.1s, when you add Slam to that swing, with perfect timing and 0 latency (never in reality) you will swing at the speed of 3.6, which is same speed as without Flurry. Because you have to time abilities between Slams and white hits, you are not using them every time they are ready, but rather every 2 swings = 7.2s for MS and every 4 swings = 14.4s for WW. With 41/17/3 you don’t have such problems with timing, you are using MS every 5 seconds and WW every 10 seconds, no GCD conflicts either. Here is the math done on those assumptions:

2000ap
130 weapon dps
3.6 speed

White dps: 272.8

MS damage: 471 + 468 + 210 = 1149

33/28 MS dps: 1149 / 7.2 = 159.6
41/17 MS dps: (1149 / 5) * 1.05 = 241.1

WW damage: 471 + 468 = 938

33/28 WW dps: 938 / 14.4 = 65.2
41/17 WW dps: 938 / 10 = 93.8

Slam dps: 272.8 + 140 / 3.6 = 311.7

Total 41/17 dps: 272.8 + 241.1 + 93.8 = 607.7
Total 33/28 dps: 272.8 + 159.6 + 65.2 + 311.7 = 809.3

And so 33/28 can produce up to 25% more dps then 41/17. That “up to” is the key here. First, using Slam every swing is huge rage eating. How much rage can you generate per swing? 20? 30? Sure you can Slam every swing, but you need to produce rage for using MS and WW as well. 41/17 will produce much more rage then 33/28 in this scheme of things. Also, this is assuming perfect reflexes and 0 latency, Now let’s do same thing assuming being 0.5 sec late with Slam, in this case your Flurried swings go up to 4.1second:

2000ap
130 weapon dps
3.6 speed

33/28 White dps: 272.8 * 3.6 / 4.1 = 239.5

MS damage: 471 + 468 + 210 = 1149

33/28 MS dps: 1149 / 8.2 = 140.1
41/17 MS dps: (1149 / 5) * 1.05 = 241.1

WW damage: 471 + 468 = 938

33/28 WW dps: 938 / 16.4 = 57.2
41/17 WW dps: 938 / 10 = 93.8

Slam dps: 239.5 + 140 / 4.1 = 237.6

Total 41/17 dps: 272.8 + 241.1 + 93.8 = 607.7
Total 33/28 dps: 239.5 + 140.1 + 57.2 + 237.6 = 674.4

Something as simple as being 0.5s too slow with Slam every swing is lowering your ideal dps with 33/28 by ~17%, slower swings means slower Slam and slower MS/WW cycles. Now god forbid you will have any rage issues with white hit every 4.1 second, comparing to 125% rage giving swings every 3.6 with 41/17. In normal instances and heroics I’m pretty sure 41/17 can easily compete if not beat 33/28 for dps, raidbuffed however the rage issues of 33/28 can be gone (windfury totem and whatever can you get), which allows you to use all your abilities to it’s fullest. Theorycrafting is fun, but we will have to wait a bit and see how it really works out in game, people will get right conclusions after few days.

edit: Oh, yes, you should also add ~2% more dps form WM to 33/28, which I haven’t done here.

Terhix

And so I posted ‘Remove imp. Slam talent’ suggestion.

Slam, Talents, patch 2.3 3 Comments »

In this topic.

Title says it all I guess. The way things are atm Slam is just useless without talents, which is a pity since it turns out to be really nice ability (at least it’s used now unlike pre-TBC). Situation here is pretty similar to Arcane Explosion problem mages had.

The baseline attacks a two-hander wielding warrior can have and use as effective damage dealing tools are Mortal Strike, Whilrwind (only in zerk) and Slam, there is Overpower for when the target dodge or Heoric Strike which is highly rage-eating with slow 2h, making it not so good of a choice. Slam allows warrior to chain more attacks in a row followed after an instant, and while it’s reseting swing timer, it requires some skill to use making a difference between weekend warrior and good warrior.

Improved Slam is pretty high in fury tree, it’s a two-handed benefiting talent, but if one go for 41 arms (which is the right tree for two-handed users) he can’t have Improved Slam, meaning you have to sacriface something from primary tree to offspec fury and become infamous ‘hybrid’.

Improved Slam could be moved to Arms tree (which is not solving the problem that Slam is useless without talents into imp.), but that would most likely end in reducing the potential of arms tree by trading something to fury. Arms is also pretty-talent heavy tree at few tiers, making warriors do some tough choices there, adding Slam would make it even worse and not very solid without investing 45+ points into arms. On the other hand fury can recieve a talent that can benefit them, most likely for dual wielders not to make Arms warriors look at the 20-30 range fury talents as better then high end arms talents (like it’s now, and what patch 2.3 is at least trying to change).

Slam is one of the things that makes me feel forced to spec heavily into fury as an arms warrior, making the base attack 0.5 sec cast without talents and removing the talent as a whole would give me much easier time when trying 45/5/11 or 41/20 after 2.3.

Terhix

A different approach: 33/28/0

Arena, Slam, Talents 17 Comments »

When you look at top arena rated warriors there is one thing interesting (well, two if you count a prot warrior), there is a fair amount of warriors with 0 points in protection - no Tactical Mastery. I’ve already discussed 35/23/3 build vs 33/25/3 build, but those stats really got me thinking, and some people bashed me in comments for labeling 31/30 as not-really-arena build.

I’ve been thinking about Slam a lot, and I’ve been thinking about Tactical Mastery, as the arguments that you don’t actually stance dance a lot on the arenas are, duh, pretty sensible. I’ve tried 31/30 before and I didn’t like it, now I know I did some things wrong. I’ve tried to test Slam with 31/30, but I did it all wrong, I tried to use it as a main attack, timing it after white hits, so I had to be really focused about my movement, hamstrings and skill timing, while loosing the bigger picture, I’ve respecced back to 35/23/3 as Slam sucked for me. But I’ve changed again, this time to 33/28 to prove myself I was right that you can’t do arenas without TM and that Slam is shit, but after playing some 2v2 practice it made me smile.

Before I go into Slam however, I’ll point out two other things I’ve changed in my build. First thing is - I dropped Booming Voice for 5/5 Unbridled Wrath. I’ve said a lot of shit about UW in the past, but I ended my post with “so if you are finding yourself to be rage-starving, it’s something you can pick” - and that’s what I’ve done. I don’t have improved charge, and often I simply can’t charge on the beginning of the arena forcing me to bloodrage -> intercept. With 35/23/3 such start was often a tragedy, it took me precious seconds before I could gain rage to use MS so our dps wasn’t mitigated by 100% undebuffed healing. Now with flurry and UW I build up rage much faster. UW is not a huge bonus, even after the recent change it generates low rage/second, but it’s better to have that 5 more rage after some bashing and being able to use abilities faster. Flurry is also a big factor when it comes to rage generation. The problem with flurry is, after rage normalization, it’s effect on rage generation was toned down, so now you generate less rage per swing with flurry on, but you still generate more rage with flurry then you would generate without it, and it increases UW’s performance as well. I obviously doesn’t have full flurry with just 28 points in fury tree, but 3/5 is well enough, having 30% speed boost vs 20% speed boost and second wind is no competition to me. I just like second wind too much to drop it, there is a gazillion of situations when u are immobilized or stunned on the arena, if you are being focus fired or not, and even if that healing isn’t a life saver when there are 3 people on you, that extra rage makes my warrior soul fly, especially since now I’ve something to do with it…

SLAM! Forget about using it every white hit, forget about using it all the time, forget about killing someone with just a slam spam, this is not freaking PvE. Just because it doesn’t have cooldown doesn’t mean you have to use it all the time, it was something I couldn’t accept first time when I tried it with 31/30. With loosing TM I lost some utility, however Slam gave me some more utility I didn’t have before, but the key part is learning how and when to use slam in PvP situations. There are two situations when you might want to use slam: a) Your instant attacks are on cooldown; b) You don’t have rage for your instant attacks and you need to deal damage right now; In both situations it might not always be a great increase in actual dps, you might hit it just before a white hit lands, making your auto attack reset in the worst possible situations, but you shouldn’t worry about that. Of course, some timing is necessary, but it doesn’t have to be perfect, the point is not to try making Slam as much effective dps tool as it can be, the point is using it as a missing chain link in your burst damage combo. There are situations when you are standing with full rage, both MS and WW on cooldown and your enemy has like 22% hp, a single Slam followed by Execute before the poor guy gets healed can drastically change the situation, and get you out of the deepest shit. It’s something you have to train, theory crafting isn’t good enough, using Slam effectively is pure practice. I took my time at 2v2 practice arena with gimps to master it, had to loose couple of 1v1 fights with rogues and had to miss it a couple of times when enemy run out of melee range to learn my lesson, and while I might not turn into the most awesome Slam user in WoW, I then played couple rated 5v5 with my team and it didn’t fail me. More dps, more rage, I think I’m going to stay 33/28 for a while…

Terhix


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