Warrior/Paladin 2v2 guide for masochists
Arena, Paladin February 1st, 2008UPDATE: Added MatsT’s comments
Why would you pick a Paladin and not a Druid? I don’t know, you might know someone you used to play for months in wow or even before who got well geared Pally (my case), you might not know any Druid, or all the Druids you know already do 2v2 with a warrior, or better yet, a warlock or hunter. Either way, you are foolish enough to want to get your ass up on the ladder with what you have, since if you don’t have what you like, you like what you have. So here is a short list of tactics for most popular 2v2 teams you might face:
WARRIOR/DRUID
Status: winnable
It’s very unlikely you will win a mana war with such team, since it’s very easy for druid left alone to drink, while hots keep his warrior alive. What we did against that setup was simply killing the druid, you will need Mace Spec for that, a bit of luck, good timing on pummel, good to have freedom under your feet, and the druid MUST have Judgment of Justice on his ass. Since the druid starts in stealth, start on the warrior but don’t beat him too hard, get as much rage as you can for when the druid shows up. You can trinket one cyclone and than you have to pummel all the rest.
Warrior/druid: You are partly right here, as killing the druid is the way to go. However, it’s quite a bit more complicated than you make it sound. Against a good druid, you have little to no chance to catch him and kill him straight up, even with a JoJ. In order to win, it is imperative that you can also help your paladin to drink, until you finally get that lucky crit+mace stun streak that will kill the druid. Sometimes, a simple hamstring+freedom can let paladin get away and drink on other side of pillar. Sometimes, you will have to wait until druid tries to drink, then nuke warrior hard, to force the warrior into turtling and meeting up with his druid, while your paladin drinks. We have never lost this matchup in season 2 nor 3, but the wins often take as long as 15 minutes, when trinket+NS is on cooldown and i i get lucky.
WARLOCK/DRUID
Status: pain in the ass
Basically same thing as with warrior/druid, except this time you are killing the druid with a timer, that timer is your pally’s mana being constantly drained. You can also try to do it the “normal” way, push on the warlock, kill the pet, back on the warlock, kill another pet, your pally can drink now, push on the warlock and if they do enough mistakes you have a chance to win. Pummel all fears and mana drains you can.
ROGUE/PRIEST (HEALER)
Status: this is your day!
Try to get in combat, find the rogue or do whatever not to get pally sapped. Picking your target depends on what the rogue will do, if he goes for your pally you have to go for the rogue, if he goes for you, you can go for either priest or rogue. If you decide to go for the priest with rogue on your back (not good idea if it’s dagger rogue btw), prayer of mending will heal for some nice amounts every time you use whirlwind, there are two solutions for that: a) don’t use whirlwind or b) use sweeping strikes, I prefer b, you will have tons of rage anyway from rogue beating you. If you stay on the rogue and your pally is smart enough to LoS mana burns, you will win mana war, the priest can’t really do many mana burns since after evasion fades he will have to drop heavy healing bombs on the rogue. It’s good idea if your pally will assist you with hammer of justice on the rogue when he use evasion, also use intercept to stun the rogue whenever you can, stun means he can’t dodge, and dodge is what makes keeping MS debuff on him difficult, either way you should deliver him a lot of pain.
Rogue/DiscPriest: After the HARP nerf, this is one of the better matchups. However, it’s not nearly as simple as sticking on the rogue and winning the mana war. If your paladin can stand still and keep you up with flash of lights, yes, his mana will last longer. However, the other team won’t let him do this. The priest can easily keep the rogue up while still having plenty of time to chase paladin with fears and mana burns. If the paladin is forced to use holy lights to keep you up between LoS-ing mana burns, the priest’s mana will last longer. In addition to this, keep in mind that even ONE dodged mortal strike will cause mortal strike debuff to fall off for at least 2 seconds, which is more than enough for their priest to land a greater heal. The strategy to winning usually involves staying on the priest whenever there is an opportunity to do so. Your damage output becomes a lot higher, and your paladin will have a lot more freedom to stand still and heal, or even drink. Once their rogue manage to peel you from the priest, you usually have no choice except hitting the rogue, especially when pillars is involved. The priest will typically heal himself to full and try to drink. If you can not follow him, you must instead nuke the rogue to force the priest to come back. This may be a win opportunity if you have HoJ and/or intimidating shout to cc druid while finishing rogue with paladins help. If you don’t think you can pull it off, intercept the priest as soon as he comes back into LoS. This will put pressure on the priest while the rogue is still on low hp. Hopefully, the priest won’t have enough to heal both himself and the rogue and still get away and drink more. Eventually the priest will oom and die.
HUNTER/DRUID
Status: Zzzzz…
Very unlikely you will be able to kill the druid, even with JoJ, scatter, cyclone, trap, roots, repeat while your pally is fighting with scorpid poison and viper sting. Kill the pet and push the pressure on the hunter. If he rez the pet (many 2v2 hunters have improved rez-pet which allows them to rez in 4 seconds), kill him again. Once the hunter is OOM you have the chance to win, it’s easy for him to get away, feign death and drink tho. Expect a half hour game.
ROGUE/DRUID
Status: winnable
You can win this on mana, chasing druid can be difficult due to stuns and crippling when you can’t get BoF. Very similar fight to rogue/priest except druid can’t manaburn your pally.
WARLOCK/PRIEST (HEALER)
Status: mission impossible
Push the warlock, kill the pet, push the warlock, kill 2nd pet, push the warlock. Again, pummel all fears and mana drains you can. Chances are you will still loose if you do everything perfect.
WARRIOR/PALADIN
Status: don’t be a nub and win
Mirror match is not something you will have with warrior/pally, but it does happen. Go for the pally, it can take a while, but you will either take him down or OOM eventually, the other warrior will most likely go for your pally as well. Manage your rage, keep MS up ALL THE TIME, even at cost of not pummeling that heal or 4, it’s better for you to allow the pally 4 heals with MS debuff, than to allow him 2 heals without the debuff. Do not use whirlwind/slam/sunder/intercept (as stun) if you know your rage gen is not good enough, use MS, hamstring, pummel in that order. Obviously, try to stay behind him, parry on MS can be problematic (if you see MS is going down then you can try to use intercept-stun and/or pummel at all cost before you get the rage for another MS). Stay on him after he bubble/bop, eventually go away and prepare for charge if he can’t LoS you in 1 second. If he stun you and you got your trinket ready, gratz, you just got 20 rage for free. Once he is going down a nice train of mace stuns, pummels and intercept stuns can basically render him unable to do anything, but again, manage your rage when you are doing this. Do not execute at 19%, try to get him down to 10% or so, loosing MS debuff because you executed too fast is bad as well.
Warrior/paladin: There is pretty much 3 theoretical strategies that can be used here.
1: stay on paladin until he ooms.
2: stay on warrior until he dies/paladin ooms
3: switch targets continously depending on who is in range, who has freedom and if paladin tries to drink.The strategy you describe is number 1. That strategy can work well under some circumstances. It is the preferred strategy for us because it is very easy to execute. However, there is a problem. If the opposing warrior wants to, he will be able to stop you from staying on their paladin. This means that either team can force the other team away from this strategy. If you still decide to use this strategy, a few hints:
*Never pummel a holy light. Holy lights are ridulously manaineffective. Let them land, and instead pummel flash of lights, since this can force him to or scare him into using holy lights to get back to full.
*Sunder armors can be powerful, but it can also backfire. A paladin that has 5 sunders and 50% hp can simply bop himself and use a bandage. Sunders removed, no mana wasted to heal, and you have very little chance to kill him before forbearance goes away. If the enemy paladin uses this strategy i wouldn’t recommend sundering him.Now to the other strategies. Consider the following hypothetical scenario. All players stand still. Team A warrior is attacking Team B paladin. Team B paladin heals himself. Team B warrior is attacking Team A warrior. Team A paladin heals Team A warrior.
Which paladin will run oom first?
If you answered Team A, you are wrong. Attacking a paladin in 17k armor and righteous fury is less mana effective than attacking a 10k armor warrior in berserker stance. EVEN WHEN the extra rage you feed him is taken into account. In order to get any benefit out of attacking the paladin here, you must be able to kill him before he goes oom. If everyone were standing still, you would succeed in this since you have so much extra rage. If you are getting hamstringed and the paladin freedoms himself and pillarkites, you won’t.
In fact, due to the damage you are taking and the fact that you run away from LoS of your paladin, you probably won’t be able to keep attacking him.
The benefit of attacking a paladin instead lies in that you get automatic drinking prevention. When both teams contains good players, the situation will eventually end up something like strategy 3. You will not be able to stop the opposing paladin from drinking totally, but by switching targets back and forth correctly, putting high pressure on their warrior when their paladin tries to drink and turtling good when your paladin does, you should be able to squeeze out a 2k mana advantage here and there, that will eventually lead to a win.
Few things to keep in mind with that strategy:
*Demoshout is very worth keeping up
*Don’t be afraid to use BoP’s as a way to keep warrior alive instead of throwing 5 holy lights into him mortal striked.
*If opposing paladin tries to bop himself at reasonably low hp to save divine shield, HoJ can be a gamewinner.
Terhix
February 1st, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Great guide, i suggest you to play more 3v3 - it is not so masochistic as 2v2 and you can play with only 2 friends
It is not required to have pala/sham/priest+some lock/mage as 5v5
3v3 is most entertaining bracket…but it is still rock/paper/scissors
February 1st, 2008 at 4:46 pm
I’ve got 5v5 team up to 1866 last week, with much less drama than it took us to get 2v2 to 1850+, so I guess I’ll stick with that ;).
February 1st, 2008 at 4:57 pm
2v2 is so unbalanced. I’m boycotting it until Blizzard fixes it; which will probably never happen. I’m tired of hour long matches against Druid/Hunter teams, all the CC that every class has now, and the 10 minute wait periods before I lose to another hour long match.
February 1st, 2008 at 6:05 pm
I’ve decided to only play 2v2 for fun, at lower ratings.
Maybe it makes me seem shit, that I prefer playing sub 1850, than up past 1900 where my team has reached.
It’s not because I get easy wins through gear, it’s because you find a lot of 2dps teams that actually make you play, rather than a lot of druid teams that make you watch. It’s just more fun. So my druid and I are starting a cycle of making teams, getting them to 1750 or so, then selling, either teams or points.
Other than that, I plan to play 2v2 very rarely.
=)
February 1st, 2008 at 6:11 pm
I’d say you left only one combo that’s mission impossible for warrior/pally…. Warlock/SPriest
February 1st, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Yeah, I basically took just top 5 most popular 2v2 setups above 2200 from sk-gaming and added mirror match. Warlock/SPriest goes down to basically pummeling the shadow priest’s shadow school, then praying to pummel mass dispell so your pally won’t loose bubble in 1 second and then killing the priest.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Warlock & Priest, keep hamstring on all 3 targets, you win.
February 5th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Thanks for this - I appreciate your insight.
I’m just starting out on 2vs2, but we struggle horribly with frost mages with the constant CC and Silence for my Pally healer. What would be your recommended tactics against, say, Frost/Frost or Frost/Hunter combos?
Apologies for the noob questions, but I’m just starting out.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Arb’s Pally here! I’d also be interested in Frost/Lock tips too, as the spell lock from felhound, or seduction from Succubus, plus the mana drain and fear from the lock are a painful addition to the Mage counterspell/poly!
Any advice would be greatfully appreciated!
February 5th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
It’s all about exploiting LoS and letting your warrior know when you are silenced/feared whatever so he can spell reflect and run out of LoS as well. If you can’t LoS mana drains/burns warrior has to be on the target that’s causing them with pummel. The basic rule against 2 dps is - don’t die, they will go down eventually.
You will also have to use bubble early in the game and when you are under bubble you drop your warrior BoF and pray for him to do as much damage as possible during those 12 seconds.
February 6th, 2008 at 3:17 am
Sorry but you just don’t seem to have grasped any of the matchups you describe, or maybe you just play at low ratings.
February 6th, 2008 at 8:22 am
If 2k is low for you. I might not be the best warrior on the planet, but that’s pretty much how we did it.
February 6th, 2008 at 9:09 am
@MatsT: How about offering some constructive alternative strategies, rather than unsubstantiated trolling? Perhaps a link to your own blog? Look forward to hearing from you… not that I expect we will.
February 7th, 2008 at 1:16 am
I don’t have a blog, but i can provide some additional hints:
Warrior/druid: You are partly right here, as killing the druid is the way to go. However, it’s quite a bit more complicated than you make it sound. Against a good druid, you have little to no chance to catch him and kill him straight up, even with a JoJ. In order to win, it is imperative that you can also help your paladin to drink, until you finally get that lucky crit+mace stun streak that will kill the druid. Sometimes, a simple hamstring+freedom can let paladin get away and drink on other side of pillar. Sometimes, you will have to wait until druid tries to drink, then nuke warrior hard, to force the warrior into turtling and meeting up with his druid, while your paladin drinks. We have never lost this matchup in season 2 nor 3, but the wins often take as long as 15 minutes, when trinket+NS is on cooldown and i i get lucky.
Rogue/DiscPriest: After the HARP nerf, this is one of the better matchups. However, it’s not nearly as simple as sticking on the rogue and winning the mana war. If your paladin can stand still and keep you up with flash of lights, yes, his mana will last longer. However, the other team won’t let him do this. The priest can easily keep the rogue up while still having plenty of time to chase paladin with fears and mana burns. If the paladin is forced to use holy lights to keep you up between LoS-ing mana burns, the priest’s mana will last longer. In addition to this, keep in mind that even ONE dodged mortal strike will cause mortal strike debuff to fall off for at least 2 seconds, which is more than enough for their priest to land a greater heal. The strategy to winning usually involves staying on the priest whenever there is an opportunity to do so. Your damage output becomes a lot higher, and your paladin will have a lot more freedom to stand still and heal, or even drink. Once their rogue manage to peel you from the priest, you usually have no choice except hitting the rogue, especially when pillars is involved. The priest will typically heal himself to full and try to drink. If you can not follow him, you must instead nuke the rogue to force the priest to come back. This may be a win opportunity if you have HoJ and/or intimidating shout to cc druid while finishing rogue with paladins help. If you don’t think you can pull it off, intercept the priest as soon as he comes back into LoS. This will put pressure on the priest while the rogue is still on low hp. Hopefully, the priest won’t have enough to heal both himself and the rogue and still get away and drink more. Eventually the priest will oom and die.
February 7th, 2008 at 1:50 am
Hmm that was quite a wall of text, anyway, on to the mirror matchup:
Warrior/paladin: There is pretty much 3 theoretical strategies that can be used here.
1: stay on paladin until he ooms.
2: stay on warrior until he dies/paladin ooms
3: switch targets continously depending on who is in range, who has freedom and if paladin tries to drink.
The strategy you describe is number 1. That strategy can work well under some circumstances. It is the preferred strategy for us because it is very easy to execute. However, there is a problem. If the opposing warrior wants to, he will be able to stop you from staying on their paladin. This means that either team can force the other team away from this strategy. If you still decide to use this strategy, a few hints:
*Never pummel a holy light. Holy lights are ridulously manaineffective. Let them land, and instead pummel flash of lights, since this can force him to or scare him into using holy lights to get back to full.
*Sunder armors can be powerful, but it can also backfire. A paladin that has 5 sunders and 50% hp can simply bop himself and use a bandage. Sunders removed, no mana wasted to heal, and you have very little chance to kill him before forbearance goes away. If the enemy paladin uses this strategy i wouldn’t recommend sundering him.
Now to the other strategies. Consider the following hypothetical scenario. All players stand still. Team A warrior is attacking Team B paladin. Team B paladin heals himself. Team B warrior is attacking Team A warrior. Team A paladin heals Team A warrior.
Which paladin will run oom first?
If you answered Team A, you are wrong. Attacking a paladin in 17k armor and righteous fury is less mana effective than attacking a 10k armor warrior in berserker stance. EVEN WHEN the extra rage you feed him is taken into account. In order to get any benefit out of attacking the paladin here, you must be able to kill him before he goes oom. If everyone were standing still, you would succeed in this since you have so much extra rage. If you are getting hamstringed and the paladin freedoms himself and pillarkites, you won’t.
In fact, due to the damage you are taking and the fact that you run away from LoS of your paladin, you probably won’t be able to keep attacking him.
The benefit of attacking a paladin instead lies in that you get automatic drinking prevention. When both teams contains good players, the situation will eventually end up something like strategy 3. You will not be able to stop the opposing paladin from drinking totally, but by switching targets back and forth correctly, putting high pressure on their warrior when their paladin tries to drink and turtling good when your paladin does, you should be able to squeeze out a 2k mana advantage here and there, that will eventually lead to a win.
Few things to keep in mind with that strategy:
*Demoshout is very worth keeping up
*Don’t be afraid to use BoP’s as a way to keep warrior alive instead of throwing 5 holy lights into him mortal striked.
*If opposing paladin tries to bop himself at reasonably low hp to save divine shield, HoJ can be a gamewinner.
Wow, that was long. Sorry for the bad attitude earlier btw.
February 7th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Fair enough, I’ll quote that in the blog entry if you don’t mind?
February 7th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Sure, go ahead
February 7th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
I’d suggest the paladin learn to fake heals when the enemy warrior is near. Your warrior should try not to be near you because of pummel/fear/mace stuns. I can pretty much control a paladin with pummel/target focus into intercept lock down.
February 7th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
You’ll probably have a TON of rage… so sunder/hstrike when you have a ton of rage and WW/MS is on CD.
February 8th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Thanks for coming back so constructively MatsT. I would welcome any further advice you have on other matchups.
Personally, I’m still hanging about the 1500-1600 bracket for 2vs2, but hope that taking on board your advice will enable us to advance more quickly.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Sorry to say that i’m getting a bit fed up with the setup myself. It’s just that beating any team with a warlock is such a huge uphill battle. I haven’t played against many hunter teams, those are probably doable, but warlock teams just seem impossible to beat even when they sometimes play even retarded.
Sure, we can ki
ll the felhunter easily enough, but the voidwalker that follows we never have a chance to kill, and it’s not like any healer have any troubles keeping a voidwalker warlock up while still drinking as much as he wants. We’ve tried killing the druid if that’s his healer, but a competent druid will never let a warrior kill him, even if judgment of justice is up. Winning the mana war isn’t really an option, as the warlock’s dots are way too effective, combined with the fact that as soon as the paladin gets into line of sight to heal me, he will get drained.
And if we’re gonna lose to any warlock team (40% of teams), most double dps teams (20% of teams) the setup won’t be good enough even if we win every single time vs warrior/rogue/hunter + healer.
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:36 pm
ah, played 30 matches with my warrior and a pala yesterday for the first time ever. I kept all your tips in mind and we won 25 of em. We’re just barely Season 1 nubs but there will defenatly be a shitload of matches to come
March 9th, 2008 at 8:32 am
That’s a great guide, but could anyone prepare me the same one but for shaman+warrior? I’ve been playing with paladin in s2, we got to 1900, but in s3 with sham we have problems to pass 200-250 less rating… (all in all I had 5 months break, but my skills couldn’t completely fade!)
March 10th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
And by the way, our main problems are teams with rogues (they eat shamans faaast), especially disc priest+rogue and 2 dpsers like- fmage+rogue or even warr+ele not resto shaman.
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:07 pm
what about rogue+mage :(((?