Warriors officially dethroned on SK Gaming
Arena, Paladin January 21st, 2008Current world top 100 player ranking representation to class population:
Druid: 24% arena / 10% pop = 2.4 ratio
Warlock: 20% arena / 11% pop = 1.81 ratio
Warrior: 22% arena / 14% pop = 1.57 ratio
Priest: 13% arena / 11% pop = 1.18 ratio
Rogue: 7% arena / 11% pop = 0.63 ratio
Paladin: 5% arena / 10% pop = 0.5 ratio
Mage: 4% arena / 13% pop = 0.31 ratio
Shaman: 2% arena / 8% pop = 0.25 ratio
Hunter: 3% arena / 13% pop = 0.23 ratio
Population data from Warcraft Census. Hunter situation is a very funny one, they are on the bottom of the food chain in representation, yet they are actually most potent arena class atm. Hunter/Druid teams got up to the 3rd most popular setup above 2200 rating in 2v2, which is one of the reasons why warriors went down, as druids are switching over to hunters for the most part. I guess forum nerfcallers can finally see the truth: It’s not warriors that were shining in warrior/druid 2v2, it’s druids, you tools! That doesn’t mean Blizzard should nerf druids, they should just remove water from 2v2 bracket and problem is solved! It’s much harder to drink in 5v5 than it’s in 2v2, and druids are masters of exploiting it, especially night elf bastards with shadowmeld-drink.
What’s inspiring, especially for me, is that there is still a fair amount of (4.3% which makes it 5th most popular) warrior/paladin setups, with the rise of the druids one could expect paladins go up as they bring one excellent tool to counter druid teams - Judgement of Justice. That being said warrior/paladin is still far from the X/druid easy mode, no free drinks, not much CC, yet I like to play it as it really feels rewarding.
On a side note, last week paladins were on an uproar (when they are not?) about retribution viability in arenas claiming that they, as a hybrid class, should have more then one role in pvp metagame, which is something you can’t really disagree with. Either way 5 minutes of analyzing situation made me come with those particular suggestions for the paladin class:
Step one: change repentance with crusader strike in retri tree.
Step two: make repentance trainable for all paladins at level whatever.
Step three: put charge at 41p retribution.
Step four: give paladins fear ward.
What this fix: Gives retribution paladins a way to enter melee combat, they already have tools to stay in melee combat despite not having snare ability - it’s not perfect, but neither is hamstring - they just have nothing to get back into melee once casters start to kite their ass. 30 second c/d in combat charge with immobilize effect like druid one (might be without spell interrupt as well) would be gimped enough one not to make it overpowered, yet good enough to make this damned spec work. Crusader Strike as 31 talent point is just cosmetic and brings them closer to what enh shamans have. Trainable repentance would bring a bit of CC for all teams with paladins, making them more viable especially in lower brackets where paladins stopped to shine after S1, long cooldown long range CC which breaks on damage, it’s not a cyclone, but I guess it would make it a bit more even in fights against teams with warlocks. Fear ward is something that I would also see on them, warlock/priest can really push it on paladins, and it’s easy to back this up with lore, heck, paladins in D&D have passive fear immunity since level 2, they are holy warriors, they are not afraid of some clowns in pajamas.
Terhix
January 21st, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Give charge to the retribution paladins and you have a warrior with heals and a bubble. Ret paladins are already powerful as it is… thay just whine because they can’t win against casters, well welcome to the club :P.
I agree thou that non-ret paladins could use a fear ward and even an incapacitate in arena, but i think blizz should come up with something more creative than giving them retribution talents/priests abilites. Give them something new and unique to bring them on par with druids.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Lets face it, paladins are clowns in pyjamas and Retri build just makes their pyjamas pink. Whos affarid of clowin in pink pyjamas?
January 21st, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Nihil:
To put paladins on par with druids they would need ‘puts you out of combat for 10 seconds, now you can drink like a druid’ talent.
> Give charge to the retribution paladins and you have a warrior with heals and a bubble.
Dunno about you but I outheal retri paladins on my warrior with second wind and blood craze, heals cost too much mana and are too easly interruptable to be useful for retri pala, the only way he can use it is when he bubble himself, which means he won’t be able to use AW, not to mention dispelling a bubble is not a big issue for any team that has a priest with a clue. As long as they don’t have MS debuff, they have to do twice the damage we do to kill things in 2v2 as dps/healer vs dps/healer. They also can’t run forever like we do and are very vulnerable to mana burns.
Giving them charge wouldn’t really make them too good in any way, especially if it’s going to be immobilize-charge like druid’s one (stun would make HoJ even less useful as they would have 1/2 DR a lot).
January 21st, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Terhix
Everything you say it’s true, and reasonable. Ok, so probably Ret paladins need a buff in arena, i have no problems with that. Arena is a controlled and fair environment and i agree that warr+healer vs RetPala+healer favors the warrior.
Nevertheless i do lots of BGs too, and what i see everytime is a warrior (without hamstring and charge/intercept) with 1 loooong stun, 1 incapacitate, 1 (2 vs melee) bubble, heals (ofc they can’t heal for much, but they can heal) and a chance to escape movement impairing effects at will.
They lack hamstring, as i said, but they have passive +15% movement speed and judgement of justice to keep them in range so… they don’t need hamstring :P.
Oh, and don’t forget -15% on all the opponent’s attributes and a _ranged_ finishing move.
You say you outheal them with SW and BC, and if you are Mace spec, like i am, you have probably a nice 4,5 sec stun per fight. But the difference, and it’s a huge differente, it’s that our heals and stuns are random, while theirs are on demand.
All in all, a Ret Paladin has good survivability, good damage and good mobility. A warr has meh survivability, slightly better damage (if epicced) and not-so-good mobility.
They don’t need charge. We need a buff ;).
January 21st, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Intercept is pretty much a 3 second on demand stun if you use it this way.
Anyway, I made a list of 3 things that are needed for a melee class:
1) Ability to deal melee damage:
Warrior - checked
Paladin - checked
2) Ability to stay in melee range:
Warrior - checked (hamstring)
Paladin - checked (bof, dispelling roots/magical slows)
3) Ability to enter melee range:
Warrior - checked (charge+intercept)
Paladin - none (unless you count dispellable and breakable on damage with too long cooldown to be useful repentance).
And that’s it, paladin got -15% to all stats? Great. I’ve instant aoe -300 attack power, buff my party better than paladin, have the best debuff in the pvp game (MS), random stuns, disarm, should I really continue?
Ranged finishing move? With the “sick” amounts of spell damage retribution pala have, hammer of wrath doesn’t kill a fly.
January 21st, 2008 at 5:17 pm
theyr hammer of wrath is like our execute nowadays… even yourself were complaying it about it
January 21st, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Hammer of Wrath does not remove your whole mana, and it’s good in hands of holy (spell dmg from healing gear) pala, my healadin use it all the time in 2v2, but in hands of retri pala it’s useless.
January 21st, 2008 at 5:53 pm
yeah exactly… our execute is even worst
January 21st, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Execute is a gamble. They should give it’s base ability a higher % to crit in my opinion.
January 21st, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Well it’s gonna be a neverending discussion Terhix ;). I’ll just add this:
4) Ability to bubble, heal and stun the opponent whenever they like:
Warrior - Uh?
Paladin - checked
I stand by my opinion: Ret Pallys are fine.
January 21st, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Heal whenever they want? Retri? Lol no, under pressure retri pala will cast short heal in 5 seconds.
January 22nd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
I think before they worry about base-lining Repentance and giving Ret pallies something new (I think they should have something other than charge, something more creative, but you’re right, they should have a way to close melee range) they should first worry about ITEMIZATION.
The reason Ret pallies suck so much in arenas isn’t because their spec is ‘gimp’ or they ‘fail at healing’ it’s because their S1 and S2 has NO RESILIENCE. None. Zero. It has str, int, stam, crit, and spell damage.
Fuck spell damage! Give them resilience for god’s sake! Hell, if you must have spell damage, lower their int a bit and put some on there.
Currently, Ret Paladins have to botch it in arena until they can save up enough points to have some S3 so they have a competent resilience stat and -then- they get to actually compete.
More than any class/spec deficiency, this is destroying Ret Paladin arena viability.
January 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 pm
As warriors, we get no ranged abilities other than shoot. They should take all melee abilities away from hunters, like wingclip. And I swear, if I’m able to see them put a trap down, and I’m doing well to dance around it….I shouldn’t set off the trap when I’m 15 yards away from it.
January 24th, 2008 at 1:12 am
Check it, I play both an MS warrior AND a ret paladin and Tehrix is on the money. My paladin Full Merciless Glad and Hammer of the Naaru) I have almost as much mana as a mage But in an arena unless I bubble I cant heal. And heals which go off for a mighty 2.4k per 900 mana. Awesome. As opposed to My warr who has 14k health arena buffed so everytime I am stunned I gain 1.4k health from second wind and every crit gives me back around 700. Not to mention my warr gets the healing passively so I dont have to stand around and cast while being kited or interupted like a douchebag. Win.
Therefore Paladins arent weak but they are overly susceptible to mana burns and kiting. We have BoF and dispels but thats no charge or intercept. (Repentance has a 1min cooldown)
PS a lovely alteration to Crusader Strike in the last patch that was a nerf for anyone who geared with spl dmg, 110% of weapon dmg, With 1800 AP my pala shows about 1200-1250 max weapon dmg, therefore CS Peaks at 125 bonus dmg, 85 short of Rank 6 MS and without the effect. Pwned.
January 26th, 2008 at 3:42 am
I enjoy running 2’s with a ret pally (me being a warrior), and usually the only problems we face are DR on stuns because we both have the BS maces and with my random procs and his occasional weapon proc it almost renders his stun useless…and if he has to heal we lose…only healing that is done is bandages if needed
I actually prefer this over holy pally though because it’s fun running something not so common XD