Flurry vs BF: I’m right, you are wrong, deal
Flurry, Talents November 28th, 2007In previous post Veritas is trying to prove something that’s impossible to prove, and he is using many words and numbers for it. I’ll make a short post that will prove why is he wrong.
Fact: your white dps needs to be below 40% of your total dps for Flurry to produce less per-talent-point dps then BF.
Fact: with rage normalization BF adds about 2% to rage gen, which won’t be even noticeable as rage is rounded to small numbers making it negligible.
In scenario where you are using Slam, MS and WW, you need pretty much 500 rage per minute to keep that up. Now when you are using Slam to slow your hits down, let’s assume you are hitting once per 4 seconds (you don’t have Flurry, yet), that means you have to generate 33.3 rage per hit. With good gear you should get what? 20 rage per hit on cloth? To generate that amounts of rage from damage done only you would need to have 66% crit and hit a cloth guy with 0 resilience. Good luck.
Dropping white dps below 40% of your total dps is really hard, there are problems with rage, there are problems with cooldowns and there are problems with global cooldowns, you can’t magically toss hamstrings, pummels, MS’s, WWs, Slams whenever you like and feel like it, without being rage starving and having constant GCD conflicts, it’s just not fucking possible.
Fact: There is no way BF will ever produce more dps-per-talent point then Flurry if you are the only physical dps guy in the group gaining rage from damage done only.
Now I don’t know about Veritas, but I can always find a way to burn my rage down with something, I’m never at 100 rage, ever. There is no such thing as too much rage, the more rage you generate the better, and for that reason, Flurry beats BF by infinity, since BF generates so much rage it’s… nonexistent.
BF is different then Flurry, it has an advantage for when you are not the only physical dps in your group, which is what it was designed for. You take Flurry to greatly increase your single-target dps for when you are ignored, dealing damage when you are not ignored was never a problem, and in 5v5 when you are not ignored, you are running around in def stance trying to survive, at which point it pretty much doesn’t matter which one you picked.
Terhix
November 28th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Basically comparing flurry to blood frenzy requires that you know how much of your dps is yellow and how much is white. If you do 40% white damage 60% yellow, 2/2 BF = 3/5 Flurry. If you do more than that as white, flurry is better, less than that, BF is better (for DPS!).
The problem is yellow damage is only limited by rage. In an infinite rage scenario you wouldn’t get any white hits because you’d slam/ms non stop. In a no rage scenario you’d do 0 yellow damage (i.e. if all white dmg was spent chewing through bubbles or something).
As I said in my post, its impossible to model rage, because it isn’t just from your white hits. It also comes from second wind and incoming damage (and a bit from AM/UW and mace stuns). These sources can’t be ignored, and there’s a reason every pvp warrior worth his salt has 2nd wind - that shit procs A LOT. You don’t take damage much in small arenas (DoT’s being a notable exception), but the more you add the more damage you’ll take, even indirectly (aoe dmg).
So a long story short, you have to guess how many yellow attacks you think you could pull off. In my model, for BF to close the gap with flurry you need 10 MS, 5WW, and 6 Slams in 1 minute.
I chose this because I feel like I have no problem using ms/ww every CD, and I take imp slam for a reason - I need the rage dump. When I didn’t have imp slam I was stuck cleaving and sundering.
Yet the #’s look like this: 10x ms: 300 rage. 5x WW: 150 rage. 6x Slam: 90 rage. Total rage required: 540.
In 1 minute you get 20 rage from AM, so drop requirement to 520.
That’s 9 rage per second, or 35 rage per swing.
Sounds impossible right?
Well consider your normal white swing will bring 15-20 rage (say 17 avg) and your crit will bring ~35 rage. Again we’re guessing here, modeling rage generation is nearly impossible.
12 white swings = 204 rage
3 white crits = 105 rage
520 - 309 = 211 rage to be generated by incoming dmg/2nd wind.
The best case scenario for 2nd wind here is 120 rage, if it is ticking the entire minute. Let’s say its up half the time, and let it count for 61 rage. That leaves a 150 rage gap to be filled.
IF you’re being attacked even by 1 player, 150 rage over 1 minute is not hard at all to generate. If you’re not being attacked (in most arenas you won’t be) then you will not likely reach the point where BF does more dps than flurry - although the difference will still be very small.
Now the real problem in all this modeling is that in pve, I have NO problem whatsoever hitting ms and ww EVERY cooldown (not like you have anything else to do). Even back in level 60 days, without improved slam I remember having to use non-improved slam on bosses just to dump some rage because it would get too high and ms/ww still on CD.
So my experience is that hitting ms/ww every CD is not a challenge, and you have rage leftover for some slams. But the numbers show this basically can’t happen unless you’re getting 211 rage from incoming/2nd wind.
The only answer is that I’m generating more than 17 rage per white and 35 per crit, or I’m critting more than 1/3 white hits. But putting out numbers higher than 17/35 or 33% crit starts to look a little silly.
November 28th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
ugh I noobed a bit - 5x ww = 125 rage, not 150. So take 25 rage out at the end. You need 186 rage/minute from incoming dmg and 2nd wind (or 3 rage per second) to do the rotation I listed - 10ms/5ww/5slam per minute.
November 28th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Basically comparing flurry to blood frenzy requires that you know how much of your dps is yellow and how much is white. If you do 40% white damage 60% yellow, 2/2 BF = 3/5 Flurry.
You meant 2/2 BF = 2/5 Flurry.
November 28th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
I may just be being naieve, but with my new 45/11/5 build…I’m seeing more rage generation than 33/28. Think it’s because I just got gorehowl - axe spec for white crit, Endless Rage, Unbridled wrath, and imp bloodrage?
November 28th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
No one is comparing Flurry to whole high-end arms tree, it’s just a matter of Flurry vs BF.
The only answer is that I’m generating more than 17 rage per white and 35 per crit, or I’m critting more than 1/3 white hits. But putting out numbers higher than 17/35 or 33% crit starts to look a little silly.
Consider that in PvP your 33% crit will be 23% crit and your white hits won’t do 200% damage but rather 160% damage.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
I hate you guys… I cannot make my mind up!!! I took BF and 3/5 Flurry but now I’m missing SW
To be honest yesterday we did arena 5vs5 before s3. 8 won and 2 lost and I was quite happy with the general rage thing… I’ll stick with it a bit and I’ll let u know
November 28th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Lets just say flurry benefits most when you are the only physical dpser and your rage generation is limited while BF benefits most when you have other physical dpsers and have very good rage generation.
It doesnt take a genious to come up with:
Flurry = pvp dps while BF = pve dps.
Note, I’m only comparing those 2 talents, not efficiency of the common builds related to them.
November 28th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
my arena team does not have casters
war, rogue, hunter and dudu feral as dps(3 slots dps available + 2 healers pala and a second dudu)that is why I got BF.
November 28th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
This is the first blog I’ve ever seen to controvert itself
Nevertheless, it’s valuable to see both opinions represented in a decent way. And this is the most significant point I like about this blog: It does not give you some master pattern that tells you: “It’s done this way and no other!”, but rather gives you opinions and reasoning based on logic.
Keep up the good work!
November 28th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Hey Terhix, what if you’re stun all the way, wouldn’t you then have 100 rage?.
Also can you do a post of AP vs Crit.
1 Crit Rating = 2AP
What’s the best margin. and include if you have Kings and should you get more crit for that. You know.. Do your thing
Thanks
November 28th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
That the fuck is a dudu?
And yeah…I love this place. I visit every day.
November 28th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
well, my posts are based on logic. Terhix’s posts are based on polish calculators that north americans can never understand.
Agree with poster who said 3/5 flurry better if your rage gen is crap, 2/2 BF better if anyone else is doing phys dps (that much we knew).
The question really was how the dps compares between the two. The short answer is: it depends on your rage gen, but if you use slam at all they’re pretty equal.
Personally I play with enough different people, and do battlegrounds, so the added dps to my friends makes it a no-brainer. If ALL you do is arenas with casters, and you don’t want TM, 33/28 is probably a no-brainer too.
Was interesting though to see that 3/5 flurry is like half-endless-rage. Have to really keep that in mind with flurry!
November 28th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
well, my posts are based on logic. Terhix’s posts are based on polish calculators that north americans can never understand.
Haha
November 28th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Polish mathematicians hacked enigma, so be thankful there is one nation that doesn’t have shitty education system and you don’t have to speak german now :P.
November 28th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Very nice calculations, new points of view and constructive thinking.. just what i personally want to see.
Keep this blog going!
November 29th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Love the debate guys. One question based upon this quote:
“You take Flurry to greatly increase your single-target dps for when you are ignored, dealing damage when you are not ignored was never a problem.”
According to the “Axe vs. Sword Calculator” posted on this site earlier, I think I saw that ER and Imp. MS produced more single target damage than 3/5 flurry. Is this right? If you have a build that includes ER and BR, how does that compare to builds that can include 3/5 flurry? I’m loving SS in ‘zerker stance, but I also do mostly 2v2 arena and would be interested in your thoughts.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:09 am
I’ve pretty much covered that in my post about going back to 33/28 a while back. While full arms offer you BF and imp. MS, 28 fury offers Flurry, Weapon Mastery (I would have to put weapon chain on my weapon without, so I count that as -2% dodge and weapon enchant), Sweeping Strikes and Slam. Even if overall dps is lower 33/28 has more utility to offer then full arms. I might try 41/20 sometime soon, will see, right now I’m having time with SS :).
November 29th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Dont forget ONE thing,
its an analogy to the savagery vs Proc enchants argumentations.
to benefit completely of flurry, you need to stay on your target, BF wounds stay for 15 seconds. flurry needs 1 crit every 3 auto swings to be perma-up, BF 1 crit every 15 seconds.
of course, the BF profits too the more hits your get in, but if all you can get on your target are intercept-ms-hs before youre finding yourself sheeped again, flurry is worthless.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
BF can be triggered not only by crits but also by rend so if you can manage to charge-ms-hamstring-rend (unless u already got a crit strike) you and your m8 will benefit from it straight away.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Nobody uses rend.
If they do they are wrong.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
you cannot crit every hit therefore rend it can be usefull to trigger BF.
I dont care if you use numbers to prove me wrong.
The mere fact of triggering BF could in same cases be usefull without waiting for a crit on a high resiliance target.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Rend is not worth the rage in pvp. ever. If you must use the 15 rage, throw in a slam.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Rend does something like 250 damage over 21 seconds.
Deep wounds lasts 12 seconds, you should be able to crit 1x/12 sec considering that’s enough time for 3 white swings and probably 3-4 yellow abilities.
Unless you have 15% crit.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
I do not have 15% crit but when you know there is your rogue and your druid both hidden behind your clothy target waiting for you to charge and need to focus and you do not crit it straight away pheraps a 4% dmg more triggered by a 15 rage rend is not too bad.
Of course I do not use it in a 1vs1 or 2vs2 or 3vs3 situation. There are cases where rend could be useful.. and immediate
November 29th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
I think Terhix and I both agree we would really, really like to have a comprehensive stat-recording tool on our UI’s so we could quantify stuff like this rather than guess.
I would love to be able to show that blood frenzy has 90+% uptime on my targets (downtime being if I don’t crit in my first 3 swings or something), with actual evidence from in-game.
Since I haven’t found a good UI mod to do such monitoring/parsing, I’m basing my opinion on how often I see crits in pvp to say with absolute certainty - I know I crit at least once every 12 seconds in combat, and thus have absolutely unequivocally no reason to ever use rend.
Not even on rogues.
Deep wounds does the job folks. Take rend off your bar.
December 1st, 2007 at 12:04 am
“Consider that in PvP your 33% crit will be 23% crit and your white hits won’t do 200% damage but rather 160% damage.”
With 2/2 impale, your crits do 220% before resilience, so 176% with ~400 resil.
Regarding rend, spending 15 rage for 250 damage and renewing the 4% buff now instead of waiting 3 seconds for a white swing is a waste. You could spend that 15 rage on a slam which does far more damage than rend, does it upfront, and has a decent chance to crit and proc DW + BF.
December 1st, 2007 at 11:38 am
Impale affects yellow damage only, your white crits do 200% impale or not.
December 24th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Resilience reduces the critical strike damage bonus, not the entire critical strike damage.
So 400 resilience = 20% reduced critical strike BONUS, so a hit for 100 that would crit for 200 with 0 resilience crits for 180 with 400 resilience, NOT 160
December 24th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
Sorry, but I noticed that you, Terhix, were the one making that comment about 160% damage against 400 resilience targets…. is that how you calculated it in your axe vs sword calculator? because if so thats a very big mistake that will make alot of difference in the way those calculations come out
December 24th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Yes, that’s how it’s calculated and that’s how resilience works, there was Kalgan’s post long time ago when he said that 2000 crit would become 16xx crit with full pvp gear.