Blood Frenzy or 3/5 Flurry: The choice is yours
Flurry, Slam, Talents November 27th, 2007One of the big decisions a warrior has to make in his pvp talent spec is between the flat 4% dps increase of blood frenzy and the 15% white dps increase of flurry.
Now, I don’t know too many people who will argue that BF isn’t immediately superior if you add another physical dps source to your target, so I won’t waste time arguing that. Add a rogue or hunter on your target and BF pulls double duty, surpassing flurry easily.
But if it’s just you doing physical damage, how big is the gap between 3/5 flurry and 2/2BF? Not as big as you might think - in fact its virtually non-existent.
I based my calculations on the following assumptions. Note that the actual figure for “avg dmg per hit” isn’t that important because both abilities scale. Higher crit should favour yellow damage due to impale, but 33% is pretty easily obtained by any warrior.
In order to compare the talents I needed a figure for how much of your dps comes from yellow and how much comes from white, because flurry only affects your white dps. For reference, I calculated that without using slam/hs/cleave, white damage makes up 44% of your dps. If you insert 1 slam every 10 seconds, white damage drops to 35%. I did not model for execute, hs, or cleave. Hamstring and pummel damage is pretty much negligible.
The scenario:
A 1 minute fight, using 16 white hits, 10 MS, and 5 WW (I dropped the 6th ww because GCD for MS and WW collide every 30sec, thus you could not actually do 10ms and 6 ww in 60 seconds)
A 33% crit rate (1 in 3 hits are crits)
A normal white hit of 700 damage.
The Shakedown:
3/5 Flurry provides 6.6% more overall DPS.
2/2 Blood Frenzy provides 4% more overall DPS.
BUT
Flurry costs an additional talent point. There are 2 ways to look at this:
Theoretical: BF is 2% dps per talent point, Flurry is 2.1% per talent point.
Practical: With 1 more point you could put it in 2h wep mastery for an additional 1% to your 4% of BF (5% total for BF vs 6.6% for Flurry).
You might not put it there, but that’s effectively what its worth since you could actually do that if you want max dps.
BUT WAIT! THERE’S MORE!
The original calculation does NOT include the use of slam or cleave/Heroic strike. I did not model the test to use hs/cleave as they are hugely rage inefficient and would be unfair comparisons. Everytime you use them you lose 1 of your white hits, so they quickly make flurry look terrible.
I did however re-model it to see what happens if you throw in some improved slams. The number of slams you can use in a minute is entirely dependent on your rage generation. If you had infinite rage, you’d never even do a white hit, instead slamming everytime MS was on CD. So flurry would do 0% dps in that case.
The fact of life is we don’t have infinite rage, and rage generation can vary wildly. If you’re rage starved, you might never slam. If you’re critting and getting second wind/mace procs, you might slam every other white swing. I chose to see what would happen if I slammed 6 times during that 1 minute fight, i.e. 1 slam every 10 seconds, which seems pretty reasonable.
The result?
Flurry would drop to a 5.25% overall dps increase (1.75% per talent point vs BF’s 2% per talent point).
Why is that you ask? Because flurry only increases my white DPS, while BF increases both white and yellow dps. The more my damage that comes from yellow sources, the less flurry is doing for my overall DPS.
Also, each slam takes up 0.5s of my dps time, so right away if I do between 1-7 slams, I lose 1 white swing (3.6s to do 1 swing). 8-14, I lose 2 white swings. etc. I modeled on 6 slams so dropped from 16 white swings to 15.
As you can imagine, its even worse for HS/Cleave, because every SINGLE cleave/hs eliminates a white swing. As I said, there’s no point modelling this as it will make flurry look horrendous very quickly and we know that’s not accurate.
I did not bother trying to factor in execute damage because it’s nearly impossible to do - it depends how much time your target spends below 20%, how much rage you have, etc. It’s there, and its more yellow damage - probably a significant amount, but its nearly impossible to quantify. For my model I guess just assume the target never went below 20% in that 1 minute :p
So… Are there any redeeming qualities for flurry?!
There is in fact 1 very significant advantage to flurry. Because it affects white dps, it affects rage generation. Flurry produces 11% more rage from white damage than BF does.
Thats roughly like having a half-point in Endless rage.
This is mildly mitigated by the fact that you can take Tactical Mastery with BF but not with flurry. The more you stance dance, the more rage TM is “generating” (by saving 15 per switch) for you, in addition to opening instant disarm/spell reflect doors.
So what’s the bottom line?
In the absolute best case scenario for flurry (you never use slam, HS, or Cleave), it will do 2.6% more dps for you than blood frenzy would.
If you insert a few slams, and compensate for that missing talent point (consider it at worst a 1% dps increase), flurry does pretty much identical dps to blood frenzy.
If you add another source of physical dps, blood frenzy completely blows 3/5 flurry out of the water.
Flurry’s advantage is producing 11% more white-dmg rage than BF, which is like half-endless rage. It’s primary disadvantage is that you can’t take tactical mastery, which opens doors to instant-reflect/disarm/ww and saves rage when switching stances.
When all is said and done, 3/5 flurry and 2/2 blood frenzy are almost identical in terms of dps and utility. (unless you’re a noob who never uses slam, and never pvp’s with other physical dpsers, in which case flurry will give ~1.6% more dps than BF)
But at the end of the day we’re talking 1% (or less) dps difference, and you don’t see people funneling points into 2h mastery, nor re-rolling human/orc for the 1% crit. The choice really is yours.
The Calculations:
Assume 33% crit rate.
Assume a 1 minute fight.
MS available every 6 seconds.
WW available every 10 seconds.
Optimal conditions = 10 MS and 6 WW. But GCD collides every 30sec (not to mention pummel/hamstring), reduce by 1 WW to compensate.
Over 1 minute, you will do 10 MS and 5 WW.
At 3.6 weapon speed you will do 16 white swings.
Deep Wounds - 60% of avg dmg over 12 seconds.
Avg 365-549 (s2 wep) = 457.
60% of 457 = 274.2/12 seconds
1371 total dmg over 60 seconds.
Assume average hit = 700 damage. Crit = 1400. Impale Crit = 1540. MS = 910. MS Crit (impale) = 2002.
1/3 attacks are crits.
For a 1 minute fight:
11 white hits: 7,700
5 white crits: 7,000
———————-
14,700 (44%)
Deep Wounds: 1,371
Mortal strike (7): 6,370
Mortal Strike Crits (3) 6,006
Whirlwind (3): 2,100
Whirlwind Crits (2): 3,080
————————–
18,927 (56%)
Total: 33,627
3/5 flurry provides 6.6% damage increase (AND 15% more rage from white damage), compared to 4% damage increase of blood frenzy.
BUT
What about other yellow damage, namely slam and cleave/heroic strike?
Slam = 840 damage. Slam crit (impale) = 1848
Because slam isn’t instant, even if timed perfectly it also reduces your time to do white damage by 0.5 seconds.
Essentially, between 1 and 7 slams eliminates 1 white swing, 8-14 eliminates 2.
We can’t model the precise number of slams because it depends on rage generation. If you had infinite rage you would
slam every 0.5 seconds and never even bother with white swings, thus flurry would do 0% dps increase. Even slamming after
every single white swing is nearly impossible if you want to keep using MS/WW every GCD. Thus you have to guess how many
slams you think you’d use in a minute of combat. For simplicity lets see what happens if we do 6 slams, 2 of which crit. THis
would eliminate 1 white hit from our equation.
10 white hits: 7,000
5 white crits: 7,000
—————–
14,000 (35%)
Yellow damage: 18,927
Slams (4): 3,360
Slam Crits (2): 3,696
——————
25,983 (65%)
Total: 39983
3/5 flurry provides 5.25% damage increase if you slam 1x/10seconds.
Veritas
November 27th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Oh wow, I’ll write a proper analyze on this later, and you need to stop taking crack.
You need yellow damage to do more then 60% of your total dps for flurry to be less effective dps per-point gain then BF. You will never reach so high numbers, there are situations where white dps will be 70% of your total dps, depending.
> Flurry produces 11% more rage from white damage than BF does.
If flurry adds 15% rage gen and BF adds ~2% rage gen, then flurry produce 650% more rage then BF, gg no re.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:13 am
watcha think of this
November 28th, 2007 at 5:13 am
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0xkAioM0zbZVVzu0gRc
November 28th, 2007 at 6:44 am
Actually flurry will cost more then 3 points if you dont like imp.slam then going so deep furry is 8~11 points loss, and for 8 points u can go 2/2 BF 5/5 imp MS 1/1 ER and even 3/3 TM if u drop enrage a bit.
November 28th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Hi ;), I read your articel like every morning but now considering to change from 31/30/0
http://talents.utimer.ppvh.eu/?p=vt&i=41035&b=705c502035201052d1e505010400521205z00
to 33/28/0
http://talents.utimer.ppvh.eu/?p=vt&i=41035&b=705c5020352010520021e505010400521203z00
I’m take 3-4 days a week part in raids, SSC, The Eye atm and doing arena 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, with about all at 2k rating. My main importance is in arena on 5v5 therefore i dropt “Tactical Mastery”. My sugestion was that with 2 Points “Blood Frenzy” i would bring more power for the raid, because all melee would do 4% more dmg. My group the most time consists of a Rogue, Feral Druide, Shaman, another Rogue oder Fury Warrior. So all would do more dmg, yeah, but would be the damage lose with 3 Points in Flurry be big? I mean would lose much dmg in arena, when i drop it?
I know i got no Second Wind but i have never missed it alot because of enough stamina, buffed i think normaly 14k in a arena match.
It would be great if you could give me an advice =).
Sorry for my bad english but i’m from germany
Keep on rocking the blog its great.
Writer ^^
November 28th, 2007 at 11:00 am
From my confy 47/11/3 i specced 33/28 with BF an 3/5 flurry to max my damge and party’s as well.
No much survaival abilities like SC and BC but it seems pretty ok tome now.
November 28th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Nubhix doesnt even know that blood frenzy is 2% PER POINT for a total of 4%, so don’t listen to him talk about this.
Yellow damage has to reach 60% bla bla bla. If you do 10 MS, 5 WW, and 6 slams in 1 minute yellow damage = 65%, not even including any execute dmg. What now biatch?
Get ready for some convoluted equation to try and prove flurry is 20000x better, it’s coming :p
And it is kind of unfortunate that the more you slam the better off you’d be with blood frenzy instead of 3/5 flurry, yet imp slam is on the path to flurry.
Finally to the person who said he gets both. Pvping without second wind is not advised. The rage gen alone is too much to ignore, as you will so frequently be snared/stunned as people try to control you without damaging you.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Terhix: 60-70% white damage!!! LOL. This ain’t DW fury.
Veritas is right on mark with the 35-45% white damage number. I’ve seen this countless times, and the average has pretty much been at 40%.
Thanks for the analysis. I’m 3/5 flurry right now, but I need to stop being greedy. I raid, 5v5 and 2v2 a lot. 2v2 is the only place 3/5 will help, according to you, so I may make the switch in a week or so and try BF out.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Wow, can you read my comment with understanding and then post “LOL”? I said there are situations where white will be 70% of your dps (tried to duel disc/holy priest after 2.3?) and I said you need YELLOW to be over 60% of your total dps for Flurry to be worse dps-per-point.
If your white dps is 40% of your total dps, that means one point in Flurry increase your total dps by 2%, so:
DPS: 1 point in Flurry = 1 point in BF
Rage: 1 point in Flurry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 point in BF
Simple as that.
November 28th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Except that BF affects other players and allows you to take TM. The question is whether that’s more important than the rage gen. Flurry basically requires a specific talent commitment while BF leaves some doors open (in most cases this is TM, although it could also be imp MS 3/5 or something else inf lurry).
November 28th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Terix is right…but that’s why my BF build also includes imp bloodrage.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
I agree with the rage v. dps argument. Great site guys, I’ve been looking for some good arms pvp discussion.
Have you guys written anything up on gems on gear (particularly meta gems)? Also, with the new S3 weapons, do any of them beat out the Stormherald for PvP?
December 3rd, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Flurry does not increase Rage generation.
When Flurry is active (15% f.e.) you will generate 15% less Rage per Swing.
December 3rd, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Yeah I had read this on official boards in a few places but wasn’t sure it was true.
Is it written anywhere that flurry will not increase rage gen (as you said)? Or is it just something people have seen and verified.
Because if you take the “rage advantage” that I had assumed was there for flurry, blood frenzy looks even better.
There is 1 other small advantage for flurry, which is that while its up its on YOU - not your target. So if you change targets for whatever reason, you’re still benefiting from the buff. Not a huge advantage, but worth noting.
I’m guessing the damage increase of BF still generates extra rage though, so technically you get ~2% (terhix uses this figure because of rage normalization) more rage by taking BF. Note, this is pretty freakin insignificant :p