Berserker Stance penalty has to go…
Abilities, Berserker Stance, PvE, PvP November 23rd, 2007There are things in WoW I call ancient mechanics, it’s things that are completely broken, retarded, yet still in game for some odd reason, for example one of them is the fact that deep wounds break cowering in fear effect of intimidating shout, effectively making us unable to CC someone after we crit, it’s the fact that blood craze reset whenever we get critted without giving us a tick and few other small things.
One thing that is recently floating over forums is not as minor as deep wounds/blood craze problems - it’s the Berserker Stance penalty. It was taken to public in past, before TBC, without results. We all know how berserker stance works:
An aggressive stance. Critical hit chance is increased by 3% and all damage taken is increased by 10%.
If you are not familiar with the warrior class, you can probably already smell the bullshit. 3% crit has became so minor buff since epix started to rule the world, it’s not really all that good anymore, warriors usually have extremely high crit chance, and with resilience being in game, 3% crit is not a big dps increase. Now let’s discuss this from 3 points of view: Lore, Common Sense and WoW Balance, here we go:
1. Lore
What is berserking? It’s fighting madly without worrying about self, as such berserker stance makes sense? Not really, no. Let’s take a look at similar mechanic: Barbarian’s Rage ability in mother of all rpg mechanics - D&D (3.5 version):
A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (…) A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below).
And the last “ranks” of Rage:
Tireless Rage (Ex): At 17th level and higher, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his rage.
Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +8, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +4. The penalty to AC remains at -2.
Armor Class is not what Armor in WoW is, AC increase one’s avoidance and is used for describing everything like dodge chance from Dexterity, Monk’s increased avoidance from Wisdom, Duelist’s increased avoidance from Intelligence and (of course) AC from Armor protecting body and/or shield. So, in the end how does Rage affect Barbarian in D&D? Let’s make a break down:
- Increases his damage thanks to increased STR.
- Temporarily increases his HP thanks to increased CON (I died once in D&D: Online when my rage ended while I had like 8 hp left).
- Increases Will saves to help against spells that work against mind (fear, charm, paralyze etc.)
- Reduces avoidance due to lowered AC.
Barbarian becomes stronger and uncontrollable but is unaware of attacks, you don’t care about taking a hit when in Rage, but does it says anywhere that you take more damage while in Rage? No, if anything you are tougher due to temporary hit points.
Now WoW doesn’t work same way, but we can see some similarities, while in berserker stance we can use berserker rage ability that breaks fears (Will saves from morale in D&D), we have, technically, slightly higher damage done due to 3% crit (woohoo!) and take a whooping 10% more damage then everyone else in the game. Death Wish, which (despite of being moved to Arms) is a similar category of abilities also increase damage done, and again increase damage taken by 5%. It’s worth to note that in past Death Wish used to lower our Armor and Resistances by 10%. I find it funny that original developers of WoW assumed we would have some spell resistance on our gear in endgame when implementing this ability, I mean, it would make sense for a tank class to be durable against spells back in the past, but since Kalgan is taking care of WoW PvP logic is not a strong part on Blizzard. From Lore PoV it would make sence if Berserker Stance lowered our dodge/parry chance, or even lower our armor (increase damage taken against physical attacks), being Berserk means you are going offensive, you don’t defend yourself, but there should be no penalty against things (spells) you already can’t defend against.
2. Common Sense
This one is easy. Taking look at stances as we get them:
- Battle Stance: does nothing
- Defensive Stance: decrease damage done by 10% and decrease damage taken by 10% - fair trade off.
- Berserker Stance: increase crit by 3% and increase damage taken by 10% - a rip off.
It doesn’t take much explanation, 10% damage > 3% crit, hands down. Since TBC came and resilience kicked in, 3% crit is less valuable then ever.
For some unknown reason, fury tab in my spell book has about 50% more abilities then arms or protection tabs, and I’m a FULL ARMS warrior. FULL ARMS motherfuckers, it would make FULL ARMS build warrior to be viable in PvP when using Battle Stance (aka the Stance bound to Arms tree), No?
3. WoW Balance
For the reason mentioned above, some argue that we don’t have the 10% damage penalty for 3% crit, we have them to use abilities that are in Berserker Stance, such as Whirlwind or Berserker Rage. Funny how I see this argument mostly from druids and warlocks. Guess what assholes, I’m already penalized for being in Berserker Stance by not being able to use Overpower, Spell Reflect or Disarm, and back when I was hybrid 33/28 built without TM it did hurt to see my enemy dodge and not being able to use Overpower unless loosing 80 rage to change stance. People argue that stance dancing is a core of Warrior’s play style, this is as stupid as saying that using melee weapon with windfury enchant is core of Elemental Shaman’s play style. Of course we do stance dance, we need a talent to do that effectively. When we don’t have that talent, we are pretty much forced to play in Berserker Stance, since that’s where 80% of our vital PvP abilities come from, and we are penalized for that.
Berserker Stance penalty has to go, it needs to be changed to something on similar level of 3% crit (3% higher chance to recieve crit? 3% Lower dodge and/or parry?) or affect physical effects only. We are supposed to be tough, why are we taking the most spell damage from all classes in the entire game? I understand we should be vulnerable against casters, but does that really means we need to help them by taking more damage then their spell tooltips say? Especially since every of those casters has some form of defense against us. Our class description says: The Warrior can be a defensive, shielded tank, a damage-dealing powerhouse, or a mixture of the two. Arms should be that “mixture of the two”, why the heck isn’t it working properly in that matter?
Terhix
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:50 am
“People argue that stance dancing is a core of Warrior’s play style, this is as stupid as saying that using melee weapon with windfury enchant is core of Elemental Shaman’s play style.”
I fail to see how this can be related. Stance dance is not play style, it’s players skill.
“Especially since every of those casters has some form of defense against us.”
You got counter-spells for pretty much every class.
“Of course we do stance dance, we need a talent to do that effectively. When we don’t have that talent, we are pretty much forced to play in Berserker Stance”
Whining about 3 talent points which every half-brained warrior has… it’s not like the talents are at the bottom of protection tree thus impossible to get (I presume you’re talking about Tactical Mastery). That’s why people spec - well how they spec, warriors or no warriors. You choose what talents you need and spend points accordingly. If you think TM is useless, don’t put points in it, don’t change stances.
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Horns…abit off topic are we?
Yes i agree berserker stance penalties is greater then the advantages ie 10% more damage > 3% crit
And yes to play a warrior in pvp you have to spend alot of your time in bers. stance due to kiting issues ie need to intercept whirlwind for burst and bersrage to break fear.
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:35 pm
> Whining about 3 talent points which every half-brained warrior has…
So according to arena stats at geekboys, over 38% of top arena warriors are half-brained? There are viable PvP builds without TM, and those builds relay on staying in one - berserker - stance. You still change stances with those builds (when you are getting nuked in 5v5 going def with shield is pretty much a must). Effective stance dancing during combat to use overpower/disarm/reflect, but also to mitigate some big hits (read: take them without penalty) is only possible with TM, it’s possible to burn your rage first and then change stance, but it doesn’t fix it for when you HAVE to change stance.
> You got counter-spells for pretty much every class.
I wasn’t talking about a form of CC (and it’s casters that shine with CC, not warriors), but rather mitigation.
Priest: Shadow Form if Shadow, new Focused Will if disc, Blessed Resilience if Holy, PW: Shield which is most effective against warriors (rage gen), Inner Fire.
Mage: Shields and frost toys, do I even need to explain?
Warlock: Soul Link.
Those are 3 cloth-wearing caster classes in WoW, they all have a passive of active-self-buff form of mitigation melee and/or absorbtion melee damage, even tho their armor class would suggest them being vulnerable to melee damage.
November 23rd, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Not to mention Demon Armor, which has a minor AC bonus and restores 18 health per 5 sec. (why is there no shout for a warrior to gain hp5? Why isn’t hp5 to warrior/rogues what mp5 is to casters?)
I agree with the message of this post: Some things just don’t make sense, in a common sense as well as in balance logic.
November 23rd, 2007 at 3:05 pm
I totally agree with you Terhix.
Have you ever wrote your considerations to an official Blizz post on their forums? I think you would get many ups from all the unhappy warriors out there (all those ones without a fullmercyless gear.. well geared wars do not usually complain too much ;))
But your thought is fair and a 3% crit is not worth 10% more damge.
November 23rd, 2007 at 3:11 pm
There is a topic about this floating around EU forums now, haven’t seen one on US tho, and I’m on EU WoW so can’t post on US forums :P.
November 23rd, 2007 at 4:43 pm
I would definatly agree with Terhix,
3crit is nothing, specially nowadays with resilience for a 10% increase in damage is ridiculous, it should definatly be changed, but with the what seems to be a constant nerfing on pvp warriors, its hard to see Blizzard changing something like that for us.
November 23rd, 2007 at 5:54 pm
it was +10% done / +10% takin in beta, they lowered it to 3% crit cos it made warriors insanely OP
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:06 pm
I definately agree that the current beserker stance is outdated for arena’s. My 5v5 can kill a warrior from 100% to 0% in about 2 seconds and we’re not even a 4dps setup. All you need to do is time the burst when he’s in zerker stance and boom…dead.
I think the easiest fix would be to remove the 10% dmg taken completely. PreTBC we had hitpoints to compensate for the extra damage taken, but not anymore. We can’t socket our gear with resilience/stamina either, because we need the extra crit for our rage generation against high resilience targets.
Warriors are one of the juiciest targets in arena’s atm and lorewise/balancewise that’s retarded.
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Kaervek:
1) Nowhere did I say anything about buffing 3% crit to 10% damage, I’m talking about the penalty ONLY.
2) What happened in beta has nearly no impact on current gameplay. Let’s not fix shamans because they were overpowered in early days of WoW… oh wait, they are pretty much the weakest class now.
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:58 pm
I agree with the OP for the most part, especially after our latest nerf making kiting much easier forcing us to use zerker stance that much more.
At times I spend ENTIRE arenas in some form of slo or full on CC. And that’s just 2v2 :P. But now that i think about even with being in zerker stance 90% of the time we still generally win even if its 10+ min game.
you can’t fuck with a skilled warrior and his drood.
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:36 pm
I’ve played with it for a long time and pretty much have learnt to deal with, but yes i agree 100% this is one retarded mechanic that needs to go. Just one of those thing that can really make me mad and frustrated as a warrior.
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:46 pm
whats also funny is that apperantly blizz added the 10% dmg taken so that warrior wouldnt constantly stay in zerker stance..
November 24th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
In my opinion, Defensive Stance is the most balanced among the three stances. Its passives make sense, its abilities make sense.
I agree Berserker Stance’s penalty is too much, given that in the realm of PVP your Berserker Stance only abilities are too critical to dance away from “most” of the time.
Battle Stance has problems, too. Battle Stance, like the Arms tree, should offer some common ground between tanking or DPS/PVP, but it really doesn’t. Its only passive is threat reduction, and its only abilities not available in other stances–Charge, Mocking Blow, and Overpower–are highly situational and hardly worth remaining in Battle Stance most of the time to use.
Berserker Stance’s penalty should be revised. Battle Stance, on the other hand, could use some serious work. Anyone else notice it’s the only stance without an “improved” version available through talents? Maybe it’s because there’s nothing there to improve on. Why not give Battle Stance the most abilities? That’d make sense for a “common ground”/”general” use stance. Or why not improve its rage gain or discount abilities used while in Battle Stance? That could offer warriors some incentive to use it. Imagine if it had a built in Endless Rage, or a built in Anger Management. As an Arms warrior, in what’s arguably intended to be the “Arms warrior stance,” I could really dig something like that.
November 25th, 2007 at 1:23 am
The 10% increased dmg is just rediculous. In a lot of situations you simply CAN’T leave zerker stance, cuz then you will get feared/doted, enemy will heal himself etc. When trinket is on CD, when enemies are running away and you need to intercept, when you have rage to burn and do WW, and you do WW when in frost nova if mage is walking away affected by piercing howl and you can’t hit him already but he’s still in range for WW, or when you’re just chasing someone and he’s in range too (while intercept on CD for example) - and you need to deal dmg right now, instantly, while running.
Tbh I don’t think Blizzard will do something about this stance - it is true that you need some skills to stance dance right, but it will be their argument - warriors are NOT forced to be in berserker stance all the time - if you see that some shit gona happen, don’t wait for it - change stance. Of course there’s a lot of situations, as I already said, when you simply can’t do it - on one hand, but on the other hand - berserker stance gives you it’s own set of abilities that you actualy use.
If berserker stance can ever be changed to meet PvP demands - I belive it must be some kind of a new talent somewhere deep in the Arms tree - just like Berserker stance got threat reduction for PvE in fury tree now. I already see one useless talent that can be changed for such purposes - Improved Disciplines seen close to 0 use, must be one of most useless talents in WoW.
P.S. After some thinking I changed my mind, it will be stupid to have Berserker Stance buffing talent in Arms tree, there should be a talent that will buff Battle Stance, maybe add chance to resist fear mechanics - something useful in PvP.
November 25th, 2007 at 4:48 am
There’s the issue of scaling. Casters becomes stronger and stronger as gear improve, our stamina does not scale with this, espicially with our increased damage taken abilities we have we have become one of the most squisy classes in WoW. Using “deathwish” has truly become a deathwish now (espicially in zerker stance).
I think the state of warriors is extremly sad atm, and season 3 will bring more frustration, cause of even more damage to the dps classes and low HP scaling for us and damage taken scaling widly out of proportion with our incraesed damamge taken abilities. Basically means that the 3 lock DoTs will completly kill you in zerker stance with deathwish i assume
November 25th, 2007 at 11:19 am
I can already see the 51 arms pointer in WotLK:
Improved Battle Stance
Passive
You can use your intercept, berserker rage and whirlwind abilities while in battle stance.
Duh! You all know it’s comming, and we will all go for it, without considering 41/30 etc :P.
November 25th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
[cut!]
someone’s stealing
Doesn’t mean you have to advertise him :P, thanks for report tho - Terhix
November 25th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
S3 should actually strengthen melee classes with the addition of armor penetration.
November 26th, 2007 at 9:53 am
Against a low armor target yeah, S3 will cause us to hit slightly harder. proberly about 5% more dmg ish. Nothing amazing.
Against something like a druid in bear form, a paladin, another warrior, more than likely you won’t see any noticable difference.
November 26th, 2007 at 10:14 am
S3 is going to be, overall, much more offensive then S2 for any class, and this doesn’t really make me happy.
November 26th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
More offensive?
As if shaman and mage nuking me and my rogue companion down in like 8-10 seconds against a healing priest isn’t already offensive enough =/
(and I’ve got 14k HP with 256 resilience, he’s got 11k HP with around 248 resilience)
Or did you ever play versus an 3 elemental shaman team?
This is madness! (;D)
They nuked me in an instant from 80% to zero (and I mean an instant, not 2 or 3 seconds). This requires well timed coordination certainly, but it’s crazy nevertheless.
But yeah, that’s kind of an extreme team. I’ll have to admit, I’ve still got no clue how to beat such a team with our composition. This seems to be like a nemesis team to ours.
November 26th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Yea, WTB trainable Ice Block as well, or at least 5min c/d shield wall in the arena…
November 26th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
“Whining about 3 talent points which every half-brained warrior has… it’s not like the talents are at the bottom of protection tree thus impossible to get (I presume you’re talking about Tactical Mastery). That’s why people spec - well how they spec, warriors or no warriors. You choose what talents you need and spend points accordingly. If you think TM is useless, don’t put points in it, don’t change stances.”
You fail. Not every warrior has TM…especially 33/28 builds. The whole point in 33/28 is having everything vital in the arms tree while putting as many points into flurry as possible.
November 26th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
“it was +10% done / +10% takin in beta, they lowered it to 3% crit cos it made warriors insanely OP”
That was the beta…before the horrible idea of resilience came out.
November 26th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
(In post 24, I was just stating that to your opening sentence.)
December 3rd, 2007 at 8:51 pm
[...] so long ago I worte about Berserker Stance penalty, today I’ll stop for a while and try to summarize the state of Battle Stance and Arms [...]
January 22nd, 2008 at 10:23 am
This is a ridiculous argument.
As a warlock, I have only 1 unstoppable enemy in pvp - warriors in berserker stance.
You idiots are immune to every type of fear & CC I have in my arsenal, which means if i’m not Soul-Link demonology, I’m instant dead the moment you charge and attack. I have no defense against the charge, and once you charge in berserker stance, you’re immune to everything i do, plus you can stun, locking me out of even ATTEMPTING to counter you in any way.
Talk about OP and ridiculous, yet you whiny idiots sit here and complain about a minor thing like a 10% damage penalty. Cry me a river, you freakin idiots.
January 22nd, 2008 at 11:00 am
Oh dear.
>> You idiots are immune to every type of fear & CC I have in my arsenal
You don’t have deathcoil?
>> which means if i’m not Soul-Link demonology, I’m instant dead the moment you charge and attack.
Get pvp spec before complaining about pvp specced warriors.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
>> minor thing like a 10% …
lets make YOU MINOR -10% armor mr warlock .. you’ll get 1 hitted by holy palas, just stfu.
June 3rd, 2008 at 4:22 pm
yea i see what ur saying in this situation with the 10% more damage taken from spells as well as melee hits is bullshit i didnt even think of that till i read ur article.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:10 am
warriorsOP
>> You idiots are immune to every type of fear & CC I have in my arsenal
you do realize that being zerker doesn’t instantly make me immune right iv gotten pwned so bad against a lock it isn’t even funny.
>>plus you can stun, locking me out of even ATTEMPTING to counter you in any way
After i charge (1 sec stun BTW and no stun abilities unless you are mace speced and it procs or imprved hamstring and procs ) they fear dot if im quick to break the fear i can get 1 or 2 hits in before the dots kill me.
so just STFU and L2P a lock