Improved execute is (almost) useless.
Abilities, Talents November 19th, 2007
I keep seeing people on this site, and on the official boards talking about improved execute. Now talking about it is fine - if you talk about it like improved rend and improved cleave, but these people are talking about it as a talent that is worth taking.
I’ve done piecemeal arguments against taking it, but this will be my coup de grace on the talent, and will hopefully seal the deal against it for the vast majority (if not all) of you.
For the low cost of 2 talent points, improved execute will drop the up-front rage cost of execute from 15 to 10. I’m not sure why people think this is good, but I can only assume it’s because they don’t know what execute does. Rank 7 (level 70) reads:
Attempt to finish off a wounded foe, causing 925 damage and converting each extra point of rage into 21 additional damage. Only usable on enemies that have less than 20% health.
So, with improved execute, if you had 15 rage or more improved execute has converted 5 more rage points into damage - for the insane increase of 105 damage. To put that in perspective, 2 points in improved cleave will add 56 damage (or 84 damage for 3 points), of course you can cleave whenever you want and it can hit 2 targets… but I don’t know anyone who takes imp cleave seriously, and being twice as good as crap is still crap.
The only place improved execute does anything remotely useful is when you’ve got your target below 20%, but only have between 10 and 14 rage (less than 10 and you can’t execute even with improved, more than 14 and you could have done it with non-improved). When I get into an execute-spam situation, it’s usually after each white hit that I can execute. Incoming damage is not enough for me to hit it every GCD unless I’m being focused - and if I am being focused then I should be getting 15 just as easily as I can get 10. Remember - it’s a FIVE rage margin for improved execute to help you.
If I’m relying on white swings, I can safely say my white swings generate 15 rage even versus highly armoured paladins and druids, and closer to 30 versus cloth. I tried to use the rage formula to outright prove this, but that thing is a nightmare and is tied to how much damage you do anyways. I’ve played a warrior a long time, and I often use slam after white hits coming from 0 rage, I’m confident in my estimates.
Some classes can rage starve you, making you think you should have this talent in your arsenal to tip the scales in your favour. But if you manage to get them to 20% in the first place, you’ve obviously got the capability to generate enough rage against them. Execute is good because it packs so much damage so efficiently. It’s harder getting someone from 100% to 80% with MS/WW/white damage than it is getting them from 20% to 0% with execute and white damage.
To summarize, improved execute might as well read “Increase execute damage by 105 (or 11%)”. In a game where players pack 10-15k HP in pvp, that is not exactly impressive. It’s on the same level of the tree as enrage so you never “have” to take it. If you need 2 points to reach flurry take improved slam and/or weapon mastery instead. Oh, and if you do find yourself stuck at 10-14 rage all the time after white hits, put down the [Honed Voidaxe] and go get yourself a real weapon.
Veritas
November 19th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Quick question as a newbie PvPer: Why would I use Slam instead of Heroic Strike? HS is doing more damage and has the same rage cost. What am I missing? Thanks in advance.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
For the PvP warrior I think this talent sucks, but in a PvE situation where you are constantly executing your target when they are below 20% it can be a pretty good DPS increase for that phase.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Dreamer: HS makes you loose your whole swing, Slam makes you loose 0.5 second of your swing if you time it perfectly. You are obviously never going to time it perfectly in PvP, but it’s always a fast, nearly instant, attack when you need it. You obviously can’t use Slam at once with MS, as you can with queued up HS, but then you can’t drop HS when you see a priest using PW:Shield, while you can drop a slam, without gimping your rage gen… that much.
Asking why should you use Slam instead of HS is same as asking why should should you use MS instead of HS, where HS cost half of the rage and does same or more damage.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Heroic strike = 15 rage + no rage on next attack (20-25 rage usually), and adds 72 dmg.
Imp Slam = 15 rage, 0.5s cast, +140 dmg to next attack.
So HS is 30+ rage, adds 72 dmg, and you have to wait for your normal swing timer for the attack to go off. HS is okay with 1h weapons because the swing timer is fast anyways and you miss out on less rage, with 2h weapons tho - pretty much never use it because its so rage inefficient. 30+ rage for 72 dmg (and possibility of impale bonus if you crit ofc)? Might as well use rend.
The art of using slam is using it right after a white swing, otherwise you interrupt your swing timer.
So think of it like this - you attack, then wait 3.6 seconds, then attack again. After you slam the timer resets, so if you slam at 3.5 seconds you do the slam and timer goes back to 0 seconds. This is bad. Using slam means you need to use it as soon as possible after a white swing, to lower the amount of dps you miss out on.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Oh and for PvE fury warriors either take imp execute or weapon mastery I think. I don’t care enough about fury to calculate whether 2% less dodge is better than 10% more execute dmg, but I’d wager its just personal preference and that a lot of them do go with imp execute, as to me WM is more of a pvp skill.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
So I’m just wondering, as this is the place that I see people considering using slam as a big part of their pvp spec. I know slam resets your swing timer, so basiclly the best time to use it would obviously be after a white swing, but how often do you guys find your self in a situation where you have the rage, gcd and just after a white swing to use slam in an arena game? Also is it worth it using slam if I was say half way into the swing? (because my connection can shit on me at times and if I lag the slam might be going off 2 sec into my swing timer)
I have been 35/23/3 since I started pvping on my warrior, so the arguement here for me is the 4% dmg with blood frenzy superior or imp slam? (say if I were to go for 33/25/3) I know this might change with people’s play style but I just want some feed back because 2.3 has changed alot for warrior pvp and as for now there is no clear “cookie cutter” spec for pvp just yet and I’m trying to decide what will give me the bigger edge as S3 is just around the corner.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Slam in pvp provides 2 things:
1. rage dump.
2. burst damage.
I’ve never really checked to see if using slam affects my ability to MS/WW every time they’re up. But my experience is that it doesn’t, and I DO have excess rage to burn.
The burst damage isn’t replacable with anything else. If you use heroic strike or cleave, or thunderclap/shouts or whatever as your “Rage dump” you’re not adding burst capacity. The best example is a player at 24% hp and you have 50 rage. With imp slam you bring him to execute range in 0.5s and finish him off. Without it you must wait 3.6 seconds for your next white swing (or heroic strike) and hope he doesn’t get healed while you’re waiting.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
the real point in imp. execute is that execute is absolutely great in term of rage/damage in PvE. No one is stupid enough to use that skill when they have more than 30 rage. If you have 30 rage then just bloodthirst, now think of it as an 10-15 rage skill. Bonus from rage is useless, and it’s wrong to think of it as a 105 damage up talent, it’s all about executing at 10 rage.
That’s for PvE use, now, in PvP, though you still cannot compare it as a 105 damage bonus (that really isn’t the point), the sexyness of this talent is not as easy to see as PvE’s. Think of it as a burst under 15 of rage, the best you can get. The one you get even if you’re stuck with a shield against a rogue.
What other talent would you take anyway ? Imp. shouts ? Well, hourray. (Yeah, I’m using Blood Craze)
But please, no %increase or +dmg increase when you talk about this, that’s really not why this talent is a really huge dps talent.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Oh, and I did try imp. Slam, but on good players at high rating, I couldn’t place them in a way that it wouldn’t cost me too much time. Actually, when I got at 2k+ I hardly had the rage for it when I needed to slam. Had to keep the MS up and such. After 3 months of PvP w/ slam, I let it down for some time.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:49 am
Problem with the whole slam skill is that vs high resi targets at high end arena, u dont have enough rage. Just keeping ms up with hamstring can be a challenge, not to mention other important skills. This said i find slam and imp slam pretty much useless for high end arena cause..
2/2 imp slam points -> 1/2 imp execute 5/5 shouts.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:52 am
Justine did you even read the article or just the title?
How many times do you only have between 10-14 rage when you’re executing?
1. Upgrade your crow wing reaper
2. ????
3. profit.
November 21st, 2007 at 7:20 pm
MANY times, don’t priest use their shield against you, never been stuck at 15% on a draining-life lock ? Oh, and for priest in particular, they have a nice armor and 450+ resi. Which means :
1) Keeping them under MS, keeping the amount of rage to pummel the heal, and keeping them harmstring, that costs a shit load.
2) I have some rage to spend on rogues. You know, the ones keeping you snared 70%. If you can slam that, well, they really suck.
And well, I usually have a lot more rage than other warriors at my rating, since I still have son PvE stuff. Less resi, and 100-150 more AP.
I think you don’t get how much a dps/rage execute is at low rage. Rage bonus is nothing, the only important thing is the bonus damage to it, which is really high for that low cost rage. Did you even try it ?
I do agree with a lot of your statements, but on this one, I’ve tried so many templates with and without imp. execute, and all I can say is that it’s definitely not a useless one. I don’t mean it’s an absolute must have. Only that it does give a shit load of PvE dps, and can clearly be of use in PvP.
I did use slam, a lot. Then I discovered 450+ resi kitting-guys. I know it could be of use, sometimes I feel like “god on this intercept/imp harmstring proc I could have done much more with slam”, but, that’s not as often as getting the 10-14 rage execute.
November 22nd, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Improved Execute is extremely good for 2H PvE. +25% of my damage comes from Execute, and alot of these Executes wouldn’t be possible to, well execute, every GBC without Improved Execute. I see your numbers, but it works wonders for me regardless. It’s also extremely good in PvP with most top players having damage reduction talents, like Cheath Death, Blessed Life, Focused Will, et cetera. I have no idea why you would call this talent (almost) useless.
November 22nd, 2007 at 6:47 pm
Almost useless? I find it useful in a lot of situations… I played without imp execute before and I find it frustrating when I’m missing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 rage from execute or when my white swing didn’t generate enough rage or when I need the rage for intercept into execute. It’s maybe considered decent, but not useless, or almost useless.
November 22nd, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Upgrade your crow wing reaper and you’ll get more than 10 rage per hit.
November 22nd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
What’s your arena rating at?
November 22nd, 2007 at 10:15 pm
9000.
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:21 am
LOL, no offense… but majority of your posts are useless.. is there anyway to filter the site so i can only see useful posts from Terhix? Thanks.
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:21 am
Is there any way you can upgrade your weapon so you get more than 10 rage per hit and stop wasting talent points in a useless talent?
Barring that, maybe you can register for high school, get some sort of education, and come back with a logical argument other than “i only get 10 rage so i need this talent”.
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:22 pm
well, I guess there is also another trick to imp execute, with bloodrage up you can basiclly land 2 executes in 2 gcd. Not to mention another execute when your next white lands (if you gain rage from the next white, because i usually find my target has a PW:S on it at that low hp), I think that is the reason why alot of warrior got the talent…but I guess you can do “almost” the same with slam.
November 23rd, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Veritas, please stop trying to argue on ppl weapons, seriously, you’ll loose on that, really. You might have gone a bit too fast by saying imp. execute is almost useless, please don’t dig your own grave by doing this. You are certainly not the better geared war reading/writing here, nor the best rated, please try and understand other people views.
I have a lot of examples when my swing doesn’t give me more than 10 rage. And I have a lot more when I don’t want to wait for the next swing to come.
November 24th, 2007 at 8:48 am
i’m in full merc gear and i’m 2400 in 2s with priest healer, 2300 with paladin / mage, and 2280 in 5s. Stop assuming things and arena, experience may change your thoughts on some talents. Notice “most” top warriors that goes 33/28 get imp execute? I’m sure they picked that for a reason.
November 24th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Grow up and actually READ my first post, it wasn’t OFFENSIVE… i just disagree with you. I actually like this site, I try to ADD DISCUSSION and examples of where it was useful. Then you insult me? idiot.