2.3 – The Jack-of-all-trades patch
PvP, Talents, patch 2.3 November 14th, 2007Like many of you I considered doing some kind of tri-spec with endless rage, cruelty, and tactical mastery as the base. I thought about grabbing last stand or piercing howl and dumping more points into arms to finally get that 5/5 2h wep mastery that I always wanted.
But in the end, what 2.3 has done for warriors is made it less painful to be a pvp and pve player with the same spec. If you really want to excel in one or the other, you’re still going to do what you did before. 17/44 pve fury builds, and 3x/2x/x builds for pvp.
The move of improved intercept over to arms makes it possible to pvp without going deep into fury. This is unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your preference I suppose) counterbalanced by the new sweeping strikes. Unless all you’re pvping in are 2v2 arenas, you will want this ability. One night of playing with the new SS and I am 100% sold.
Make no mistake about it; sweeping strikes in berserker stance is an absolute godsend. You can much more easily spot the opportunity to burn it now, and do so with a lot more rage on hand. You’ll almost always get MS, WW, and a white hit off while SS is up, and unless you’re a Gump it will hit multiple targets. You’ll probably land 1-2 white hits along the way, and maybe toss a slam in there too. The only real downside to the new version is if you burn it and then get stunned. With a 10s duration, sitting in kidney shot or HoJ will basically make it a waste.
Warriors who take the 4x/x/x route will have an easier time pve tanking with the new TM, last stand, and possibly defiance. Even imp MS and Endless rage will be useful to a pve warrior in ways that enrage and sweeping strikes obviously won’t be. But on the pure pvp side of things, taking that suite of talents over imp slam, wep mastery, SS, and enrage (and possibly piercing howl depending on your spec) is the wrong thing to do.
The warrior has always had this issue, in fact most classes do. There is always some combination of talents that will let you be “good” at both pve and pvp, although not as good at either as another “purer” spec. For warriors this utility spec was always 41/5/15 - but the lack of piercing howl, enrage, and imp intercept was devastating in pvp. What 2.3 has done is significantly closed the gap between the utility spec and the pure (3x/2x/x) pvp spec, through the changes to TM, defiance, and imp intercept (to some degree, the changes to weapon mastery as well).
I think the biggest test of this patch will be to see how much better the 4x/x/x warriors can tank than the 3x/2x/x warriors. I’m mostly curious to see if the new utility spec is enough to tank prince/nightbane in kara, or any bosses in ZA. Because being able to MT 10-man instances with a pvp-viable spec would certainly be appealing, but if it just means you can OT a little better, then it’s probably not worth the loss in pvp power.
Bottom line: 2.3 should not result in a spec change for you. All it’s done is made life better for the warriors who try to straddle the pvp and pve worlds with the same spec. If you’re a pvper or a pve’r at heart, stick with your traditional spec.
Veritas
November 14th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
k i really need help on this one im a furry warrior at lvl 41 and have ben reading up allot and im not sure if i should stay fury or go arms i have heard that arms warriors kill things faster but dont have the buffs of a flurry warrior should i go arms or stay flurry
November 14th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Irrelevant question, but the answer is arms with 5 points in fury for cruelty.
Go axe spec, and spend some gold on a decent blue polearm or axe if you can’t get one out of an instance. At level 51 get your ice barbed spear, at 58 do hellfire ramparts until you get hellreaver, at 65 you can do ring of blood for voidaxe or just wait til 66 and get terrok’s quill.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Interesting post.. we hit up ZA last night and they already had a prot tank so they told me to go fury/OT spec (0/40/11 i threw together) Tanked the bear boss without a hitch, but this morning I tried tanking heroic Mechanar today in a pug with 2 mages (POM and frost) and demo lock.. i pretty much got my shit pushed in without shield slam. not sure if it was just the terrible puggers or me, but I tried tanking with fury gear/shield, nothing worked. They said Fury/OT spec was broken in the PTR but didn’t really elaborate, not sure if you have heard something about this.
You said that 2.3 probably wont be a spec change, but I somewhat disagree. With the change in Weapon Mastery, I dont really see it as viable as it once was, thus allowing me to put the 2 points in imp intercept where it once was, which has led me to seriously consider 41/17/3 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0xdAbqM0kioVVzmMZc) for a 2v2-only spec. I was 33/28 for awhile and managed to obtain a 2k 2v2 with a priest (yes, a priest) so im wondering if 41/17/3 could be a step in the right direction.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
As I said, Sweeping strikes is lackluster in 2v2, stellar in all other pvp. If all you ever do is 2v2, then I could see you deciding not to go up to SS. The first time you do a 5v5 you’re going to weep if you know what it is you’re missing.
Enrage is similar, you probably won’t get many procs in 2v2 - but in 5v5 the coincidental damage from multishots, whirlwinds, blade flurries etc will keep it up quite a bit without anyone ever focusing on you. So again, if you only 2v2 I could see skipping it, but do anything larger and you’ll probably start to notice a difference not having it.
That doesn’t even touch on missing imp slam (what’s your rage dump/burst now? heroic strike? sunder?), or wep mastery. The jury is still out on whether WM matters, it shaves 5 secs off a warrior disarm and gives you that permanent 2% dps increase by killing off some dodges. Assuming the 50% reduction is really vital for warriors, it also prevents you from needing wep chain or stonegrip gloves. I’m not able to say one way or the other yet if it is a “must have” type of thing for pvp warriors, depends how much I find I get disarmed I guess.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
thanks for tip but im a human warrior so shouldnt i stay sword spec and what are some talents to no get in arms
November 14th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
*to not get
November 14th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
There aren’t enough good or easy-to-get swords for leveling, and 1% crit isn’t going to make any noticable difference to you until you’re level 70 and worried about maxing stat points.
Use poleaxe to level like I said, then switch to swords at 70 if you want.
I was and still am a sword warrior at heart, and even I used [item]ice barbed spear[/item] from 51-60, and on until I got my [item]Manslayer of the Qiraji[/item]. Once I had to level again I went back to poleaxe for 61-70, and at 70 crafted my [item]lionheart executioner[/item].
I use s2 mace now because mace pwns face for pvp, but one day (perhaps if i get that ZA sword?) will go back to my beautiful swords.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
thanks for tip but im lvl 40 im not sure where to get training for polearm and isnt it a bad idea to start a new weapon at my level?
November 15th, 2007 at 12:59 am
41/20 was fun and refreshing. Now I’m 31/30 again, and don’t intend to change that.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:54 am
Well i tried 42/16/3 yesterday and since i was 35/23/3 before patch i must say i really liked it. I can imagine the ones playing with 31/30 before the patch isn’t likely to change but i’m really just seeing increased dps and about the same surviveablity (i dont get focues alot which means enrage wasn’t that much of a boost and i like 3v3 better then 5v5 so sweeping strikes didn’t make that much diff either)….i do have to pick up a adamantite weap chain though, played a couple of bgs yesterday and kept getting disarmed.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
So how about 35/5/21? you considdered that? i mean ls and conc blow are godlike abilities for pvp.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
And what is it you do with your “endless rage” - heroic strike? I don’t get why they built ER so that you can’t take either of the best rage dumps in the game (slam and SS). Okay I do get it actually ER is just a crap placeholder talent that they never seriously thought about.
Considering I don’t have ER and I have no problem keeping MS and WW on cooldown everytime they’re up, I don’t see what you’re going to do with 25% more rage from white damage - thunderclap?
November 15th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
35/5/21…never really thought about that, would be interesting to see if dps output of that build is enough to dominate in 2v2 and 3v3.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
To be honest if I was going to do less bgs/5v5 I would probably go 35/5/21 over 4x/x/x. Conc. blow is some serious goodness even if the talents to get there are kind of weak. I’m not sure that the dps increase of imp MS would outweigh that stun-on-a-stick. And 5 seconds is a long ass stun.
Still though, just like sweeping strikes gets better the more enemies you face, conc blow (and mace stun) goes down the more enemies you face. Based on the lengthy 2v2 queues on the weekend, I’d say most pvpers are still staying in larger arenas and bgs.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
yes…agreed i hate 2v2 ques, 3v3 is usually ok though.
Yes 5s stun with 45s cd and pummel + random macestun sounds like really nice control.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Just found your site for the first time and after looking around a little bit, I’m starting to feel a bit better about some decisions come this 2.3 patch. I’m mainly concerned with 2v2 and 3v3 so SS isn’t a priority for me and I’ll be focusing with a 100% offensive build since I’ll rarely find myself to be the target. Thus 11 points in prot won’t be a route I’ll consider.
Currently, I’m running Stormherald, but plan to upgrade to S3 2H. I guess the issue I’m running into there is, should I stick with mace in lieu of the mace nerf plus going down to a 3.60 spd wpn or switch off to the sword?
Right now I’m thinking something to the effect of 4X/1X/3 getting imp MS and ER, using HS as my rage dump (not a fan of using slam and moving targets). Again… looking to output as much consistant damage as possible to either down a single target in 2v2 as fast as possible, or finish off what a warlocks dots don’t do in 3v3.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
I think consensus is that the mace stun nerf is insignificant and is not a reason to change your weapon. For 2v2 its the hands down winner, probably same for 3v3. In 5v5 sword or mace are about the same. Terhix has a boner for axes but I’m still not sold on them due to all your crits getting dmg reduction by resilience.
spamming hamstring is maybe a good idea if you’re rockin a sword with windfury totem around, otherwise the dmg will be so low there’s no point in hitting it other than refreshing the debuff (which you don’t need to be doing every gcd). Without improved slam you should never touch the ability in pvp, but with imp slam movement is not a problem at all, because as long as you’re right on your target when you hit slam he cannot get out of range in 0.5s. when I played briefly without improved slam I used cleave as a rage dump. It wasn’t optimal but it was something, and I felt the chance to hit a 2nd target if one came into range made it worth the rage compared to heroic strike (unless obviously there was 0 chance of catching someone else nearby).
November 15th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
well Veritas i thank you for your tips i did what u said yesterday and im now2 gainin lvls twice as fast and i got the powerfull unstopable MS nowjust to get polearms up and ill be gaining lvls even faster then before ty LOL
November 15th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
I dunno about going arms for leveling…I leveled 1-70 as arms and at 70, I went DWing to try it out. I couldn’t believe how much easier PVE was. I killed multiple targets much faster and I died much less because of the lack of 2h down time in between hits.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Thanks for the input. Guess I’ll stick with mace… though really, I think the S3 model choice for mace is terribly ugly compared to the badassness that are the axe and sword.
I thought another possible discussion w/out doing the math myself… Savagery vs. Executioner enchant? I see some warrs choose Mongoose for some reason, but I never agreed with that choice.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
There are two reasons warriors don’t go with Executior.
1. Nobody on their server can do the damn enchant
2. They have sunder armor.
Honestly, I use mongoose because I’d rather have a chunk of crit rating with a faster attack in the arenas than just ignoring armor…which I can just go to DEF stance and Sunder/Disarm.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
*It’s really more of a rogue/enh. shammy enchant.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
I believe Terhix said somewhere he was going to crunch the numbers on the different enchants.
In my (untested) opinion, its savagery all the way unless you don’t have weapon mastery, in which case the adamantite weapon chain could be appealing. Not sold at all on executioner unless someone shows me #’s that prove its flat out better than savagery.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Yeah, savagery is pretty good too. It all depends on what you need more than something else. For me, I have plenty of AP, but my crit isn’t what it could be. Regularly it’s only about 26%, so I got mongoose. Faster attacking is more rage and 120 AGI knocks it up to around a 1/3 crit chance.
November 26th, 2007 at 10:47 am
That Patch SUCKS…its an unneeded small buff to MS warriors, BC already nerfed Fury pvpers but was still doing ok tho. Now with this new patch its the end of the fury/arms and prot/fury pvp…PVP isnt only about MS, theres lots of other ppl who likes to play hybrid not only that cookie cutter MS build. Arms warriors wont go 41 into arms tree anyway, these changes are completely uneeded and unwanted. You still can choose SS and weapon mastery without any problem while Fury have to put 1 poin in ss(Which is a big LOL compare to DW) and to get inp. Intercep and DW = no rampage and even Inproved Berserker =S
What this patch did isnt a buff at all, its a big nerf to all non MS PVP build…Why only MS build must be viable in PVP…only because s*****g Kalgan plays and luvs his MS cookie cutter build…
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=1152747832&sid=1
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=1153148393&sid=1&pageNo=1
November 26th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Have to agree with you there Mephisto
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZVVzu0xRZfVts0bzdxsh
have this same build as the dwarf in one of the links you posted, now with new skills it sucks, playing my alt rogue atm and not going to change my war to cookie cutter arms….death to bliz Kalgan!!
November 26th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Fury here too, i dont like this patch neither. Since when was Fury an AOE warrior, even if cleave and WW are AOE like, most warriors use them against 1 target also, especially WW. Giving fury tree SS is a fookin Nerf, the nerfed weapon mastery (rather not talk about it, its name says it all…Arms skill) is another dumb swap. Fury warrior are supposed to kill 1 target quickly, not attacking 2-5 mobs or players then die without beeing able to kill the main target…SS is only good for grinding gold when lvl70.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
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