Small choices: 35/23/3 vs 33/25/3
Abilities, Slam, Talents April 7th, 2007Those are 2 most popular arena builds. There is also 31/30, which is a compromise between PvP and PvE dps. I won’t even talk about it, no TM and no Second Wind = fail, if you play arenas, spec for arenas, gear for arenas and live for arenas, 31/30 is not for you.
So, what’s the big difference between the two? 2 points can’t make that much of the difference, right? Well, they actually can. People with 35 points in arms usually pick blood frenzy, or just put some points into talents they wouldn’t have maxed other way, people who put 25 in fury get improved Slam.
And here we hit the spot. Slam. Some people curse it, some people love it. I guess you should all know how it works, but just in case - Slam is a casting type of attack that works in melee range only, unlike instant attacks (Mortal Strike) it’s NOT normalized, so even tho the additional damage is lower then on MS, it can hit just as hard with slow weapons, while it cost only 15 rage to use. Where is the hack? Talented Slam casting time is 0.5 second - neat! But wait wait wait, one may now think it’s like almost an instant attack - it’s not. You can’t move while using slam and it resets your swing timer. Now technically, you can use slam in two ways:
- Spam it to burn rage fast.
- Time it after white attacks.
Now both of those things are quite easy to do in PvE, and provide actually pretty good DPS. Why not in PvP? Someone asked once, why fury sucks in PvP if it can do more dps, and one answer I remembered well for the simplicity - “Because in PvP people are moving and getting healed”. Now, he obviously wasn’t talking about slam, but more about burst damage and MS advantage over fury back in the day on lvl 60, but both things apply. To put it in other words - Slam is a whore to control in PvP, it’s situational, and even if you master it and use it successfully every time you can - you still have to apply MS every 10 seconds for the debuff. Let’s look at the alternatives, shall we.
How do you burn rage? If you don’t have Slam, the only answer I can think of is - Cleave it baby! Not enough arms/fury warriors are using cleave, it’s a powerful move - costly, but it’s there to use when you have shit a lot of rage. You can also apply 5 sunders on someone, believe it or not - 5 sunders increase melee dps by a ton. If you are in Battle Stance it’s even more simple - use the damn Sweeping Strikes. I love SS, there are fights where I just can’t wait for that little cooldown to refresh so I can use them again - being able to land some heavy damage on two targets is a killer, mostly because it makes enemy healer to heal 2 folks instead of one, that’s like another MS debuff you may say. But back on topic. If you didn’t pick improved Slam, you still have tons of ways to burn your rage fast, and you have an advantage a guy with Slam doesn’t - Blood Frenzy. It gives you 4% more damage, and it’s on almost every time of the day. While Slam gives you situational advantage, eats your global cooldowns and make you “immobilized” - Blood Frenzy gives you a passive bonus, it works and you don’t have to think about it, staying focused on the bigger picture.
Is one of those builds better then the other - no. They are both used and warriors with both builds show up in very top arena teams (tho more have 35/23/3 :p). How do you spec?
Terhix
April 7th, 2007 at 11:56 am
How do I spec?
I’m 31/30, and why? especially for the arena.
your first thought: no TM in pvp? *wheee*
your second: no second wind in pvp? *gasp*
well, pre BC, i speend much time in the battlegrounds playing with 33/18, MS + Wind, 3/5 enrage. while gathering about 90 000 honor i recognized the lack of TM didnt hurt me as much as i expected. yes i do stance shift a lot. but what i do else is keeping my rage at the bottom, and not because i know it would be wasted if i shift. i know it would be wasted if i die with rage left in my bar, im usually pumping all my rage into the opponent, queing HS if nescesarry to get the maximum damage per rage AND per time into my opponent(S). hell im even aware of my rage-through-damage taken rageflow somehow which allows me to send out MS+HS at once spending all rage while knowing that when my global CD is up again ill have the 25 for WW again. i dont always know how i do certain things, its mostly some kind of… instict shooled by years of warrior pvp, and i dont play any other charakter than this one. so back to topic, with my *keeping rage at zero blowing everything out but not too much of course*-gameplay the loss of TM didnt hurt me, when i shift im loosing maybe 5-10 rage if i loose rage at all. in rare situations that i cant burn my rage until i have to shift, im getting that much damage in that i dont care about loosing some rage.
furthermore faster attack speed provides better *gaps* for an imp slam to take place until the ms CD is over but that is minor. hm dump to explain that…ww and ms are on CD, my whitehit is faster so i could place a slam behind it and when the ms cd is over im ready to let it out, which i couldnt if my whitehit happened half or almost one sec later. so, long text, bad english, but
so i decided to stick to a build without TM. then with 70, i played 33/28, wind, bloodfrenzy, intercept, slam, 3/5 flurry. awesome battleground spec, beeing orcish too this build made me rogue-immune while providing lots of selfheals and some bonus rage through wind + 20% flurry. i usually spec for maximum rage anger management and UW was always included and those 2 ARE recognizable especially after the UW buff. 1 rage is a lot in some situations. however, as my arena team startet (now above 2k) i soon realized that im not stunned, rarely rooted, and mostly let alive til my team is down. if i get focussed in a match what is really rare, the wind + bloodfrenzy dosnt help me, the damage is way too fast for the HOT effects. so im standing there in the arena, making damage from the beginning to the end, carrying (for that arena situation) unnescessary selfheal skills with me while i could really need the extra damage another spec would provide. so i threw them overboard. in batlleground pugs im missing blood fr. and wind for sure, but 5/5 flurry is such a damage boost and not to forget a 25% rage boost (as 30% attack speed result in 25% real increased speed without less rage/damage due to flurry as some idiots say) that i would think twice to respec into wind and frenzy again if i’d stop playing arena. well, an its fun playing with the flurry
“if you play arenas, spec for arenas, gear for arenas and live for arenas, 31/30 is not for you”
is NOT signed though too many playstyles out there to doom a spec that hardly. second wind is not that much usefull in arenas as it is for duels or battlegounds. its by far not a must. neither is TM. with the opponents spread allover the arena, not THAT much allover of course but too much allover to let me sweeping strike effectively, im rarely stance shifting. sometimes for an overpower, and if i do, im at 0-15 rage anyway. so im standing there in berserker stance doing my dps, leading the assist train, enjoying the flurry damage and rage bonus through the whole match and not spending one thought on not having wind, blood frenzy (stronger shouts for the team > tiny self buff that wont help me if focussed) or TM.
and due to having no preview option here, i suggest you have to deal with a extremely heavy block of text, beware
April 7th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
In pve you do not need TM because you can dump your rage on command. You can plan ahead, use slam or cleave, get to 0, then swap.
In pvp you do not have that luxury. You need to intercept NOW. you need to disarm NOW. You need to overpower NOW.
Second wind generaets 10% hp and 20 rage. If you are not getting stunned/snared I want to be in your battelgroup. I spend at least half the time in combat being snared or stunned, because if you’re NOT stunned/snared, your opponent should be dead.
And the more important aspect is how bad flurry is in pvp. This is a pve tool. In pvp you joust more often than not, spending a lot of time out of range, snared, trying to catch your target to get 2-3 seconds of burst dmg in. It’s pretty rare that somebody will just stand there and let me beat on them, and if they do I kill them - no flurry required.
But on the strict topic of 35/23/3 vs 33/25/3, imp slam is simply put a pve toy. 4% extra damage all the time is much better than a 0.5s slam.
But yeah, the reason he discards 31/30 as a serious pvp spec is because of how much TM and SW contribute and how little flurry actually does in an environment where you do not get to pound on a stationary target as much as you want.
April 7th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
“But on the strict topic of 35/23/3 vs 33/25/3, imp slam is simply put a pve toy. 4% extra damage all the time is much better than a 0.5s slam.”
i agree to this
for my 31/30 i included imp slam, the ocassios to use it might be rare but i love to have it in the backhand. vs warriors when everything’s on cd, vs shielded priests, i just like the skill, and a harmstringed opponent wont walk out of range while that 0.5 sek. if the moment is right its a great advantage to have it. you might agrument that if the occassions to use it are rare, dont skill it for pvp where everything counts. well thats the fact with TM for me too. i dont have to switch stances in every fight (not talking bout arena now). im following the idea to skill up things that help me in every single fight, as far as this is possible (im not allowed to overpower in every fight but still got 2/2 of course).
“You need to intercept NOW. you need to disarm NOW. You need to overpower NOW.”
TM 0 points grants me 10 rage, enough to intercept/overpower/harmstring, and with 2,7 attack speed my next hit giving me the 10+ rage to disarm is always near, nearer that you think it is according to the difference of numbers, 3,6 - 2,7. believe me, 0.9 secs seems not to be a big deal but i think you know as a warrior you literally feel every split second, and this is an enormous difference. and what do i disarm nowadays, not warriors, most rogues are immune too, dps paladins? rare in the arena. hunters against wingclip, naa thats not worth the rage for me, challenging shout the pet and intercept him and his trap smiling.
comparing 4% extra damage after a crit and 30%(25%) attack speed after a crit while having a short time to get the hit in, youre talking about 2-3 seconds in range to an opponent (a bit low, somehow should take a watch an measure all this agains a variety of classes :D), there isnt much difference. booth need one hit after the crit so deliver the bonus while the 4% also affect specials. but if you got that small gap of time for the second hit, with a 2,7 attack speed (mungo too) you might maybe get a whitecrit in that you wont with the 3,6 speed. and what % of bonus damage is that and what rage it delivers.
i dont want to theorycraft here to say 31/30 is a better pvp built, im just trying to explain its got its advantages that might flat out some of the things you loose skilling that way and should not be judged that rough. it suits my playstyle, and its very effective. i will probably visit my trainer someday but its got an enormous potential and feels… feels just good, never short of rage, fast following hits disturbing casts and knowing that my dps is at its maximum when im once more totally ignored in the arena.
so heres an 31/30 arena warrior, under the realm pools top 15 teams. “31/30 is not for you” but for ME
April 8th, 2007 at 1:08 am
“(…) booth need one hit after the crit so deliver the bonus while the 4% also affect specials. (…)”
I can be wrong on this, but it seems to me that blood frenzy bonus is applied on the crit that proc deep wounds (making it an improved impale). Also, if you want to compare it to flurry, keep in mind flurry is 5 pointer while blood frenzy is just 2 pointer.
I’ve tried 31/30 and I hated it. Hey, I’ll just intercept that evasion rogue and disarm him when he is stunned, oh wait - no rage. Hey, I’ll just sweeping strike pwn that warrior and rogue gay party, oh wait - no rage. It might suit someone’s play style, but it renders me unable to use half of my ‘tricks’ I’ve been learning and got used to in my 2 years of warrior playing experience, and thus, it suck :p.
April 9th, 2007 at 9:31 am
31/30, top 7 arena and serious raiding.
April 9th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Only thing I can say for people that go 31/30 is to try 35/23/3…if you’ve already tried it and still like 31/30 more….well nothing more can be said I guess. Blood Frenzy is a pretty decent talent imho, it’s pretty much up all the time for free because of crit deep wounds and if you have another melee class like a rogue on your team it’s all the better. And sure even without TM you still have 10 rage to intercept/overpower…but if you are switching stances often like you should the 15 rage you lose each time (for not having TM) adds up to be a lot.
April 10th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Shyst hit the nail on the head.
I used to be in the “i can do everything I need to do with 10 rage anyways” camp. overpower and intercept are the main things you switch stances for. It’s more the fact that everytime you switch you lose 15 rage, and everytime you switch you’re that much farther away from doing an MS or WW. I think most of my white hits come in around 14-15 rage (non crit). That means if I stance dance and intercept, if I have TM I’m 1 white hit away from MS… if I don’t have TM I’m 2 white hits away from MS.
I can only assume that those 31/30 warriors just sit in berserker 99% of the time, which I would say is probably a lot more viable in 5v5 than 2v2.
And the other excellent point was that flurry is 5 points while blood frenzy is 2, so in comparing them if you look at it pound for pound, keep that in mind (reminds me of people who compare unbridled wrath to anger management).
April 10th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
well, just to stir up the pot a little more, today i was checking out the forums. there was a discussion about a 35/5/21 spec, for more control.
i feel there are plenty of other classes for control, but is this viable for warriors or teams?
i also checked many of the top arena teams warriors, none of them were spec this way. so maybe i just answered my own question.
April 10th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
The question is how much do you value Overpowers. By default, everyone will be in Zerker stance unless there is a reason otherwise because of 15 second intercepts and Pummel.
Are you willing to use 5 talent points, and all current rage over 25 to take advantage of a 47% increased crit rate for an, admittedly, very rage efficient and powerful instant. I say 5 talent points because the decision to take 3/3 TM only makes sense if you plan on taking advantage of improved overpower. If you aren’t going to take care of improved overpower, there are much fewer reasons to take Tactical Mastery. (Disarm…meh, Sweeping strikes…awesome but very rage costly coupled with keeping MS up, which is not optional, Intervene…maybe in a pinch.)
What else can you get for the 5 talent points? (1) Anger Management, (2) Flurry 3/5 (imo, Second Wind is not optional, forget the heal…how about rage gen), (3) 1 floating point to pick up Imp Overpower, Charge, Anticipation or Imp Heroic Strike, as suits your needs.
The only reason I see to stance dance on a consistant basis is to take advantage of Overpowers. Your “oh shit — owned!” ability, spell reflect, can be used in any stance. If you are focus fired and need to switch to Defensive stance, rage wont be an issue.
Improved Overpower is not 2 points…it is really 5, in my mind. Maybe the analysis would change if we could use Recklessness, Shield Wall or Retalition in Arena.
I am in the minority, though, I realize. 33/28…thoughts?
April 10th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
My above comment is obviously directed at 5v5. 2v2, 3v3, with evasion tanking rogues and Crowd Control that, when used, cuts 50% of your teams effectiveness obviously requires a great deal more flexibility from a warrior stance perspective. (Popping to defensive stance when healer is CCed, which happens almost every fight, and Popping to Battle Stance for evasion rogues, which happens often…to name 2).
5v5? Meh. A rogue evasion tanks, CC him. A healer is CCed? That is what dispel is for, etc.
April 10th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
I was actually considering last night the utility of overpower and the possibility of ditching TM.
Your #1 reason for stance dancing really is rogues. I’ve yet to see a non-healing shaman/paladin in 2v2 arenas so my disarm is for rogues. Overpower is mostly rogues although occasionally I might use it versus another warrior.
You cannot spell reflect in berserker, but in 2v2 my paladin usually keeps me BoF’d so I have no reason to be whipping my shield on to reflect when I could be closing the gap and pummeling. Spell reflect is really for those 1v1 battles where you get stuck in nova about to eat a nasty fireball/frostbolt.
I’m currently using the psych trick of 1/2 weapon mastery to get my 5th point in 2h wep spec. I could however maybe just give up on imp overpower and TM since they are only really useful vs 1 class in arenas.
But my main logic for keeping this build with TM/BF over 31-30 was that flurry isnt that hot in arenas since I dont really get to just stand there and beat on someone with white damage very often. A lot of flurry procs would go to waste with me being out of range of my target.
Since I gave up on changing my LHC for a deep thunder, I may be able to spend some gold and revisit 31-30 or 33-28.
At one time I even thought about 35-26, putting 1 point into flurry. In the end I felt 3 points TM was better than 2/2 imp slam and 1/5 flurry though… but as being discussed here, in an arena setting you can for the most part just sit in berserker. Overpower doesnt light up much vs non rogues and often isnt worth the rage loss even with TM.
April 10th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Veritas, I agree with you on Flurry. For arenas, consider 2/2 in Improved Execute over slam and just abandoning Slam all together.
If slam didnt reset swing timer, I’d be a fan, but in PvP, you cant micro autoattacks. Compare to Improved Execute (which is generally not considered valuable). Improving damage output and the readiness of an instant that is usable when you need it mose (when a target is under 20%), is key.
I am ditching Slam forever and going for imp execute. Ill just use Heroic Strike / Whirlwind / Cleave for rage dump.
Any “hidden” reason why people dont take Imp Execute?
April 10th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Because imp execute adds exactly 105 dmg to your execute (saves 5 rage at 21 dmg per excess rage pt). Whoop dee doo. This puts it right up there with improved cleave.
Imp slam on the other hand is at least fun to use, if not really that superior in pvp dmg to cleave/hs.
I think the main reason to keep TM would be sweeping strikes… being able to battle stance, get SS up, then get back into berserker to whirlwind/ms without having to wait constantly for white dmg.
As a 2v2 arena player though, this is of pretty limited use to me since my 2 opponents do not stand side by side very often. Sweep strikes helps me kill pets, thats about it.
April 10th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
The biggest benefit isnt the extra damage of Imp Execute. It is the ability to get the base damage earlier. So, if you have 12 rage and someone drops below 20%, you can do an execute, instead of waiting the 3 seconds for your next white.
Basically, how many times do you find yourself spamming execute button so that as soon as you land a white hit, you execute him. Happens to me all the time…
Improved Execute isnt about the bonus damage from the 5 Rage. It is all about being able to use execute period, when you wouldnt otherwise.
Think about it this way. Imp execute guarantees that you can execute after every single white attack, if the need should arise…that is key, imo.