In defense of sword spec
Axe vs Sword, Talents March 27th, 2007Personally I use a [Lionheart Champion] with sword spec. Swords get a bit of a bad rep with a lot of warriors. My personal opinion is that this is because your 5% chance for an extra attack does not show up anywhere on your stats sheet. I’ve had people tell me that axe is better because you can stack crit. This is nonsense, a 5% chance to crit and a 5% chance for an extra attack both have the same chance of proccing.
The damage breaks down like this for axe vs sword (white dmg - for yellow damage axe does 10% more from impale, and another few % more if its MS or Slam due to the bonus damage of these abilities):
Crit: dmg + dmg
SS proc: dmg + dmg
SS proc crit: dmg + [dmg + dmg]
Say you hit for 500
axe crit: 1000dmg (+procs)
SS proc: 1000dmg
SS crit: 1500dmg (+procs)
So really when you go sword spec, you’re hoping for that 50% damage bonus. This is the “burst potential” that sword users are always talking about. What better way to counter a healer than to surprise them with a sudden extra 1.5-2k damage out of nowhere?
However sword spec is a lot better than that, for 2 primary reasons:
- When sword spec procs off a hamstring or pummel you get a full weapon hit, probably 500-700 damage non-crit. If your axe spec results in a hamstring or pummel crit you get a lousy 50 extra damage.
- Every sword spec proc generates rage! This is the most overlooked benefit of sword spec. SS procs off of yellow abilities will net you your 14-15 rage, much more if the proc is a crit. Your axe spec will never do this (although it will proc impale on yellows).
Ultimately I always say people should take the wep spec they personally enjoy more. I am not saying sword spec is absolutely superior to the others. I do feel though that a lot of players overlook the benefits of sword spec: higher burst potential, more damage on procs off hamstring and pummel, and more rage generation.
Veritas
March 27th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
I don’t mean for this to be offensive, but your last couple posts have major holes in them. One of the main reasons why people avoid sword spec is because of the proc’s effect on swing timers. While it may not be as detrimental to warriors as it is to rogues, you don’t even mention it, which implies that you might not understand the mechanics.
March 27th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
“So really when you go sword spec, you’re hoping for that 50% damage bonus.”
this is the reason why i do not spec sword, i dont like to hope.
i prefer consistency, but i do see the potential of this weapon spec. with the it proc’ing off many abilities and talents. correct me if im wrong, but it doesnt proc off of WW, Cleave or Sweeping Strikes.
as you stated it all comes down to what you like as a player, and what is available.
March 27th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Oloh, that is the first time I have heard that as a reason people don’t use sword spec. I checked on some boards and it seemed inconclusive although I see no reason why you would be wrong (I’m looking for a mod to timestamp my combat log so I can check for myself).
While resetting the timer would suck, it would only effect procs off yellows, and only really be a waste when the timer is more than 1.5-2 seconds in.
If half the procs are off yellows, and half of those happen in the 2nd half of the swing timer, you’d be seeing about 25% of sword spec procs being “replacements” for white damage rather than additional damage.
Not an insignificant number, and probably a strong counter to the advantages I noted in my entry.
I would definitely have looked into it more had I ever heard of the mechanic resetting the timer - first time its been raised to me.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
I was wondering whose blog is this anyways? Whose the warrior behind the blog?
There is more then one, and I preffer axe for teh sexiness! :E
March 27th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Don’t know why but it seems to me that with a 25% critchance you crit with 25% but with >30% you kind of crit all the time.
The lock of a mage who has just eaten a white, a slam and a whirlwindcrit in something like 2 seconds… priceless.
This is going to happen A LOT more often with axespec and Lunar Crescent. That’s why I prefer it.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Well, the swing timer thing is real. unfortunately. not only for sword spec, but even HoJ procs reset the timer so i suggest all extra attacks do. i carryed ashkandi for a long time, bonereavers before, and really loved the proc and its huge potential. but hoping for it and beeing afraid of it proccing by a special close to an autohit reducing its power to a maybe 10% faster attack instead of extra hit made me some kind of upset by the time. im not against procs in general, theyre the spice in the pvp soup, but not a proc that may result in almost nothing if youre unlucky. at least not for me, eventually by the time ive got my arena points to waste, ill buy the (ugly lokking) sword an let it have a try again. but till then im going with the axe. mentioning resilience, some may say sword is better cause not reduced. others might say if your crit is reduced, one reason more to stack crit instead of a proc. the truth may be somewhere between, but sword spec is most enjoyable with a nice crit rate and against some resilience guys it may lack a bit more due to that. but who knows, maybe the pummel procs flat it out in pvp
in the end, sword/axe is a preferrence thing, nothing else as none is better in my opinion. well, mace spec might be worth discussing, i think it lacks a bit behind, but thats another topic.
March 28th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
I see, and /QFT axe FTW! My main problem with swordspec is that the % is too low and there’s no way you can increase that percentage. With axe spec you are basically stacking more crit right on top of what you already have. Imho
30% crit > 25% crit + 5% sword proc.
March 28th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Please read the article and use logic.
5% is 5%. They have the EXACT same chance to occur. They do IDENTICAL damage on white procs with sword having the chance to do 50% more. On yellow procs your axe crit gives additional impale damage, but your sword proc gives you additional rage.
Saying 30% crit > 25% crit + 5% sword proc makes zero sense as a standalone sentence since they are the same freaking thing. Whether its sword spec or crit the proc doubles the damage of the strike.
Statements like this are the reason I made this post, and then you actually have the ignorance to reply TO the post with the same nonsense I just got done refuting.
P.S. the white text underneath the title is there for your benefit, have a look at it.
March 28th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
So you are saying a 25% crit check followed by a separate 5% sword proc check on each swing is equal to or greater then a single 30% crit check on each swing? Cause if it is or if that’s not how it works then I guess I am wrong.
March 28th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
I’m under the assumption that this is how it works. If I’m wrong then I guess I’m wrong.
-If you had a sword and an axe both with the exact same stats.
-25% base crit
With 100 swings of the sword you will get
25 crits
5 sword procs
Totaling 30 “bonuses”
With 100 swings of the axe you will get
30 crits
Totaling 30 “bonuses”
So yes in the event where you can stand there and swing 100 times both are the same in terms of the “bonus” that you get.
However, my statement was based on PVP where you won’t get very many swings in at all before fights are decided. Let’s say you get in 5 swings ( a mix of auto attack, MS, whirlwind etc.). With Axe spec you will get 1.5 crits. With Sword spec you will get 1.25 crits and most likely 0 sword procs.
That “logic” is what I am basing my “statement” on.
March 28th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
You fail at probability.
Axe SPEC gives +5% chance for a crit.
Sword SPEC gives 5% chance for extra attack.
No matter if you swing your weapon 1 time or 50 0000 000 00 00 times, the probability is the same.
If you think 1/20 odds means you must attack 20 times to get it to happen… I dunno what to tell you. It could go off every time on your first 5 swings, or you could never see it happen in 100 swings.
March 28th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Yes, obviously 25 crits out of 100 swings is not entirely accurate since you can very well crit 100 times out of 100 swings. BUT how else are you going to compare the two when you can very well crit 100 times out of 100 swings with a 1% crit chance? Let me put it a different way.
Lets say you have 2 choices
You can either roll a dice that gives you a 75% chance to win a million bucks
Or
You can roll a dice that gives you a 25% chance to win a million bucks…but you can roll this dice 3 times…therefore giving you the potential to win 3 million bucks..
BTW, if you lose the penalty is death…
You’ll be damn sure I’m going to roll the 75% chance to win dice.
And yes i understand what you are saying when you are purely talking about the actual %. But in practice it’s different.
March 28th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
also, no need to be rude. I’m just trying to have a friendly discussion here. If I’m wrong I’m wrong.
March 28th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
One other concept that should be factored into the above article (which supports its conclusion) is the nature of resilience on crit-based damage. As resilience gear becomes more and more available, the “cost” of keeping a meaningful crit rate increases.
A player with a 30% crit rate will be reduced by approx. 8% crit rate, with damage being reduced by approx 16% (full pvp gear resiliance). That is, players that are dependant upon crit to double their damage for a have to put 8 talent points (poleaxe / cruelty) simply to overcome the full resilance gear. Note that the damage isn’t doubled, it is only 84% more, due to the double dipping nature of resilience.
Compare to sword spec, where the 5 talent points yields you a true 5% increase in the chance to get a double attack, which is incapable of being mitigated by the oppositions gear choices.
Veritas is absolutely correct about the last part of his analysis in that a 25% to be dodges, blocked or parries (technically) applies equally to both an axe and sword based spec. I use the word “technically” because, all things considered equal, you would prefer the axe over the sword, even though the math, over time, works out to be equal. The Axe spec provides a more erratic damage distribution (as a dodge/block/parry will mitigate the entire attack) or let the entire attack go through. With sword spec, you have a chance to mitigate two smaller attacks, which means the damage distribution will be more regular. In the world of PvP, erratic damage is superior to sustained damage, as it is more difficult to heal. (Note that the exact opposite is true for PvE, which is why AP is valued over Crit…because a string of unlucky crits can draw aggro, even if the damage is the same over time).
Veritas, by the way, I like what you have done here and am not coming at you. My goal isn’t to pick apart your article. I would like to see this site take off, and it has a shot if the information that is presented is accurate and complete.
March 28th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
wtb typo edit feature 8).
March 28th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Final spam comment.
The final analysis is that, despite the resilience setback, Axe spec > Sword spec for warriors for PvP. The reasons:
1. Sword proc resets swing timer, which is difficult to micro effectively in a reactionary PvP environment. Note that for PvE, you can micro your specials to reduce this impact.
2. Key crit related warrior talents (deep wounds + impale).
3. Axes have more erratic damage distribution (although same damage over time).
March 28th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
I am fully aware of the whole “resilience” variable and I honestly think that people who shy away from crit because they are afraid of “resilience” are wrong. Let’s look at the following scenarios
30% crit rate with Axe spec.
-5% crit rate on average due to resilience on target
-10% crit damage on average due to resilience on target.
That gives you a 25% crit rate (which is still respectable imho) with a 10% dmg penalty
25% crit rate with Sword spec
-5% crit rate on average due to resilience on target
-10% crit damage on average due to resilience on target.
That gives you a 20% crit rate (which is really low imho) with the same 10% dmg penalty; however, you get a 5% sword proc rate that does not have the same 10% dmg penalty (technically speaking)
Ok with the axe spec everytime you swing you have basically a 1 out of 4 chance of critting for 90% extra dmg
With sword spec everytime you swing you have basically a 1 out of 5 chance to crit for 90% extra dmg and a 1 out of 20 chance of sword procing for 100% extra dmg.
Yes I understand your argument about probability and how previous outcomes does not effect future probabilities (yes exactly like slot machines :P) but that doesn’t defeat the fact that Axe spec is “linear” stacking of “bonus” dmg while sword spec is not a linear stack but two checks.
If you take two warriors with the exact same gear and skill level except one has axe spec and one has sword and have them duel 5 times. I’m pretty sure out of the 5 duels the axe spec warrior would have done more dmg in at least 3 out 5 of those duels. However, if you take those two same warriors and bring them on a raid. At the end of the raid they will probably have very similar total damage dealth.
And if you want to get into the actual weapons themselves….mooncleaver > lionheart champion on every level. Sure the “crusader” proc is nice but the whole fear resist thing is a useless ability that could simply have been more stats. Warriors are not afraid of fear…especially warriors of the UD variety.
March 28th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
heh. shyst…using your own numbers (which are wrong on so many levels) just to follow through the logic…
axe: 1/4 = 5/20 for 90% damage.
sword: 1/5 = 4/20 for 90% damage + 1/20 for 100% damage.
sword is better using your theorycrafting.
Ironically, your conclusion is still right that axe > sword, but not even remotely for the reasons you describe. See my above post.
March 29th, 2007 at 7:47 am
well my math is using the assumption that you actually never get the sword proc
I’m assuming after 4 swings you get a axe crit and after 5 swings you get a sword crit…and it’s not until after 20 swings before you get a sword proc 
Never said i was a match major o.O And when i’m running it through my head everything makes sense to me…maybe i’m just transposing it incorrectly on paper. But whatever the number crunching comes out to be, after 3 years of playing wow my personal experience has always been axe > sword for pvp
March 29th, 2007 at 9:25 am
If I would aggree to your logic I would just greed every single damn +crit-item in future because this bloody % will probably never show in a SINGLE arenagame.
But you aren’t going to play just one ever do you? So you WILL see a difference. The thing with percentages is that just because they may be low they may very well happen.
March 29th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Whenever discussing the weapon specs and smithing weapons, I always preface my arguments with: The differences are small enough between them that you should ALWAYS take the one you like the best.
A lot of people want to optimize their character however, so they like to look at the fine details to see which weapon will give them even a slight advantage (heck I’m usually one of them).
It’s lame but the reason I never even seriously considered axe for my character is because I didnt want to spend thousands of gold worth of mats for a freaking baby-blue weapon with a big eyeball in it. If it was a drop, hellz ya. But given the choice and given the time invested to craft it, I decided I wanted my weapon to not look metrosexual (personal opinion).
When it came to sword vs mace, I did the analysis and decided that while I would love mace for pvp, the loss of dps when pve-ing would irk me a lot. I’m a dmg meter whore and I live to top that thing whenever I can. Stun proc on bosses is weak, even if its pretty nice for 5-man heroics and karahzan on trash.
I was axe spec for 60-70 (as any sane person would be). Hellreaver, warsong howling axe, honed voidaxe, terrok’s quill all easily obtained and nice weapons. The crit rate was very noticeable.
Since going sword spec I’ve had several arena matches where it has owned face when I string double or triple crits. There isn’t much that compares to MS-crit (2k+) White crit (1.5k+) proccing Sword Crit (1.5k+) all in one second. Those are instant-pryo like numbers when put together. Your axe will never do that :p
Unfortunately if its true that sword proc resets the swing timer (which from watching my char it seems to be - still dont have a timestamp mod to verify tho) that is an enormous blow to the spec. It basically means for most cases between 1/3 and 1/4 of the procs are actually useless, reducing effectiveness of the ability by 25-33%. Imagine if axe spec was 5 talent points for 3% crit… thats the effect this has on SS.
The proccing off hamstrings and rage generation, plus the burst potential is still good, but does not compensate for that swing timer crap. I do want to look at it and get conclusive evidence, but if its true I regret a bit going swords and would probably advise against it in the future. A 25% hit on the effectiveness of a proc is devestating,
March 29th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
I know exactly what you mean….the min/maxer in me is constantly fighting with the damn I want this piece of gear cause it looks awesome part of me.
But i actually think all three of crafted weapons look horrible so
March 29th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Actually I would like to have a say about the +5% critt
In theory… lets say you have 20% critt. Thats 1 critt every 5 hits. Now add +5% suddenly you have 1 critt every 4 hit as you now have 25%. (could you say +20% increase?)
Now imagine having 25% critt… add +5% to that?
1 critt every 3 hits!? Compared to +5 chance for another strike? I’ll take the critt.
March 29th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
30% crit is not better nor worse then 25% crit and sword spec, it’s just different.
If the chance of getting a crit is 25% and the chance for extra attack is 5%, in much much much simplified model, the chance you won’t actually get a crit nor a SS is:
0.75 * 0.95 = 0.7125 (71.25%)
The chance of not getting a crit with 30% crit is, obviously, 70%.
So, 30% crit is > 25% crit and 5% extra attack in terms of reliabilty (you will get less non-boosted attacks with axe spec then with sword spec), BUT this is counterbalanced by the fact that among that 28.85% chance to get boosted attack, there is 1.25% chance to get both crit AND SS at once, and moving futher - that 1.25% chance include 0.3125% chance of getting double crit.
To make it as simple to understand as possible, imagine rolling a 100 sided dice. Now, if you are axe specced and you roll 1-30 you get a crit. If you are sword specced and you roll 2-29 you get either a crit or a SS, but if you roll 1 you get both.
So the bottom line is - the axe is more reliable while the sword gives higher burst damage potential, the difference is 1.25% and it’s just come down to prefference as that 1.25% is prolly not going to make any real difference.
March 29th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Just to throw it on the pile, heh….at least in 5v5, I strongly disagree that the mace is the superior PvP weapon. While stunning an opponent is nice, you kill people by burst (lucky crit) damage. You are much more likely to get that with an axe than a mace. In fact, of the three weapons, I would put the mace below both the sword and axe.
2v2 and to some extent 3v3 are a bit different story because control/kiting generally means a lot more.
Also, I have not tested it myself, but if the crafted mace proc is like other stun procs, it will share diminishing returns with the mace spec (”chance on hit” (true) stun procs share diminishing returns, whether through talents or weapon procs). Obviously, if you start to cut the time of each proc down, the value of the mace drops considerably…mainly because the warrior doesnt have the flexibility to switch targets as much as, say a mage with polymorphing multiple opponents in succession to reduce diminishing returns.
March 29th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
I’m a 2v2 arena fiend myself, and I will say that in 2v2 having that mace spec proc would be huge in a lot of fights. It can be tough to land pummel against good opponents who constantly try baiting it, and the long cooldown of pummel puts you at their mercy once you’ve used it. Those neverending warlocks and paladins suddenly get real weak if they get stunned every 3rd hit or so.
While burst dps does finish fights in pvp, a stun can have a similar or even superior effect by negating a classes ability to escape or counter your moves (mainly by preventing heals, but other spells and abilities as well).
In 5v5 I can see how its less of a big deal since you have lots of other players around who have silence/stun abilities. In 2v2 chances are its you and the pally’s hammer of justice, so its worth more there.
April 18th, 2007 at 3:12 am
Axe is better on high damage yellows like MS. It will include the MS bonus damage and Impale, which is greater than the white hite that sword procs. Even accounting for MS weapons speed normalisation.
October 19th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
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